Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[Volvodart]

City and West Lothian are included in Lothian Buses itself. Tours and East Coast are in the group figures. Tours operating profit down from £2.9 m to £2.0 m. East Coast Buses operating profit of £0.7 m from loss of £0.2 m last year.

 

[overthewater]

Going with swings and roundabouts Even with £1m loss from the tours its seems, East Coast managed to reduce the impact of that by half. It's pretty clear to all where the loses are coming from.

 

[AngusH]

Having read the report (and the obligatory guide to safe travel to access the report)
It appears to me that a fair portion of the loss is due to pension fund obligations?

Revenue in general was up as were passengers.

 

[overthewater]

If that is the case, then why has cuts taken place to certain parts of the network?

 

[AngusH]

There were indeed some losses in operations. (page 26, pdf 28)

My reading is that there were large costs associated with the pension fund that may have been one-off.
comment on note 2 mentioning indexing changes and the McCloud equal pay Judgement (page 42, pdf 44)

 

[AngusH]

Are the lothian buses (non group accounts) available publicly?

 

[overthewater]

Yes.

 

[AngusH]

where?

 

[overthewater]

They do get put on Lothian website. The last few years accounts are also on the website.

 

[AngusH]

I can't see in the published documents where the numbers quoted by volvodart come from.

I was trying to figure out how it can be calculated that the operating losses in the main part of lothian buses increased or decreased.

What am I missing here?

I found the separate East Coast Buses Limied accounts (companies house website filing history), which match the numbers quoted by volvodart.

I was missing the obvious point that "parent entity" is the main bit of lothian buses and group is the whole (including east coast buses)

I agree with overthewater that the increase on operating loss on the combined city+west figures does suggest something.

(Sorry to add to clutter in thread)

 

[Graeme Duncan]

Glad to here that the 23 and 36 will be returning to the streets. I was very surprised they took the 23 off whilst on lockdown because I was under the impression that it was a viable service.

 

[AngusH]

My thought is maybe fewer university students+staff so less people on the 23?

 

[OmniCity999]

The electric deckers are said to be for a free City service.

 

[CN04NRJ]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....M5nRkLzLtyT4m2HN9gTvggSMSp__QBF7g2Ziq8KY5XJs4

I'll keep my opinions to myself on this (for obvious reasons), but I don't think it'll end well. Anyone else's thoughts?

THE Capital’s flagship council-owned bus company is set to be merged with Edinburgh Trams to form a single operation in a major shake-up of public transport in the city, putting an end to competition between buses and trams.
The move to bring together Lothian Buses and the tram company and scrap the overarching organisation Transport for Edinburgh would mean savings in senior management and other operational costs.And council chiefs say the creation of a single, integrated company would be accompanied by a comprehensive new public transport strategy and a redesign of Edinburgh’s bus network, which would include tackling congestion in the city centre, particularly reducing the number of buses using Princes Street.
The council said the Lothian Buses and Edinburgh Trams brands would remain while unnecessary competition between the two was eliminated.


But the city council will have to have talks with the other Lothian authorities, who own nine per cent of the shares in Lothian Buses.
A report to be considered by councillors next week acknowledges the ongoing success of the existing companies in providing high quality, award-winning transport services which are greatly valued by the public and predicts a growth in transport provision across the city.
It notes the current structure, which dates back to 2014, was intended to help integrate the Capital’s transport network, but it says in the period since then “delivery of the required integration has proved challenging”.
It adds that in light of challenges, the future projected growth of the city and the “urgent need to maximise efficiency and effectiveness”, a rapid re-structuring of the city’s transport companies is proposed.

And it recommends the creation of a single company as the preferred option, the other two being “do nothing” or adapting the current structure.
The report says: “This option would put integration and improving outcomes for the travelling public at the heart of public transport delivery and would see an end to the competition between tram and bus at a local level. It would also maximise operational savings.”
Arguing the need for a revamp of the Capital’s public transport, the report says “The current bus network is 100 years old and while this has served the city well in the past it now needs to be recast and modernised using best practise and external expertise as is being done in other cities such as Dublin.
“The only alternative to congestion is for a larger share of the public to rely on public transport and other alternative modes. This requires services that most efficiently respond to the city’s changing needs, as well as bus priority to give buses priority over cars that reflect the vastly larger numbers of people on each bus.”


Council Leader Adam McVey said: “This is about creating a sustainable, accessible and joined-up public transport system that is fit for the future.
“We simply must change the way we move around the city if we are to meet our ambitious goals to become carbon neutral by 2030 and to create a fairer, more inclusive environment.
“We wholeheartedly appreciate the roles of both Lothian Buses and Edinburgh Trams in providing high quality, award-winning public transport and excellent customer service, and will always do everything we can to help our companies achieve that."
Depute council leader Cammy Day said the changes would not “negatively impact” on the jobs of those employed by the current companies.


“Rather, as we lead the charge toward a zero-carbon future, we want to increase reliance on sustainable public transport, and as bus and tram use continues to grow, we’ll need more drivers and staff to run the companies.
“However, we can’t move forward with these aspirations as it stands – we know that the current structure has led to inefficiencies. Of course this will take time and a great deal of engagement and planning, but by driving better integration, ensuring improved governance and putting the needs of the public at the centre of public transport delivery, I know we can provide a system that future generations will thank us for.”

*Mod note* Ahem! Quotations required please. Ta

 

[OmniCity999]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....M5nRkLzLtyT4m2HN9gTvggSMSp__QBF7g2Ziq8KY5XJs4

I'll keep my opinions to myself on this (for obvious reasons), but I don't think it'll end well. Anyone else's thoughts?

One of the more serious reasons Hall left. He didn't want to be involved with the trams or anyone interfering.

 

[Jordan Adam]

One of the more serious reasons Hall left. He didn't want to be involved with the trams or anyone interfering.

So Hall did want to leave...

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....M5nRkLzLtyT4m2HN9gTvggSMSp__QBF7g2Ziq8KY5XJs4

I'll keep my opinions to myself on this (for obvious reasons), but I don't think it'll end well. Anyone else's thoughts?

I don't personally think the council getting more involved with Lothian is really a good thing as it may lead to more cutbacks in the city (i'm thinking specifically with the 22) and could see less focus on the subsidiaries like ECB. The good with with Lothian's City network at the moment is that it's mostly viable while offering many options and great connections through the city, i fear with more tram expansions we could see many of the bus links lost as the council will not want a bus and tram route competing.

 

[CN04NRJ]

One of the more serious reasons Hall left. He didn't want to be involved with the trams or anyone interfering.

Of course this is just my own opinion, but it sounds like it's just the council wanting it's successful bus company's profits to cover for their tram fantasy's losses. Conjecture and opinion, of course.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Of course this is just my own opinion, but it sounds like it's just the council wanting it's successful bus company's profits to cover for their tram fantasy's losses. Conjecture and opinion, of course.

Precisely my thoughts too...

 

[CN04NRJ]

Precisely my thoughts too...

I'm (genuinely) wondering how far the council is allowed to get involved given it's at an "arms length" company. How much could the Lothian board resist such changes/interference?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm (genuinely) wondering how far the council is allowed to get involved given it's at an "arms length" company. How much could the Lothian board resist such changes/interference?

It's pretty clear that the council could and will pay off members of the Lothian management board to push their own agenda (hence why we saw Hall being paid off as he was deeply unpopular at the council among other issues). However it is quite worrying as we could end up in a situation where board members are just following councils orders to avoid being sacked.

Even though the system is successful i do question the point in the tram system, it's slower and less convenient than the 100 to the Airport area and the other areas it serves were and are already well served by buses. I've said this many times in the past but i personally would've rather they kept the bus way, guided systems are a far better answer than a tram purely on the basis that's it's cheaper and more flexible. The real issue with trams especially in smaller cities* is that they rely on demand always being in the locations that they're built. With a Bus way you have the flexibility in that at the end of it a bus can go wherever it wants and isn't limited by rails in the ground.

*in comparison to other Capital cities Edinburgh is smaller

 

[CN04NRJ]

It's pretty clear that the council could and will pay off members of the Lothian management board to push their own agenda (hence why we saw Hall being paid off as he was deeply unpopular at the council among other issues). However it is quite worrying as we could end up in a situation where board members are just following councils orders to avoid being sacked.

Even though the system is successful i do question the point in the tram system, it's slower and less convenient than the 100 to the Airport area and the other areas it serves were and are already well served by buses. I've said this many times in the past but i personally would've rather they kept the bus way, guided systems are a far better answer than a tram purely on the basis that's it's cheaper and more flexible. The real issue with trams especially in smaller cities* is that they rely on demand always being in the locations that they're built. With a Bus way you have the flexibility in that at the end of it a bus can go wherever it wants and isn't limited by rails in the ground.

*in comparison to other Capital cities Edinburgh is smaller

Hoping not to stray off topic here (obviously being Welsh alot of my experience/interest still relates to home) but the Welsh Government seem to be using to use the Covid-19 situation to further their own transport agenda https://gov.wales/written-statement...VIIfzmb8n7QKrlTROZqdeu1ywT14Vrp_mj6-oAQcJbhYM

I hope the same doesn't happen here, replacing full timetabled services with "flexible" pre-book only services seems like a nail in the coffin for the industry imo.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Most of them are at Longstone, and the 4 will be running from Longstone from the 12th.

Routes operated from Central as of the 12th, 1, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 24, 26, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 42, 47, 48, 49, X26, X29, X31, X37, X44
Routes from Longstone as of the 12th, 2, 3, 4, 20, 21, 22, 23, 25, 30, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38, 44, 63, 200, 300, 400, X29, X33

Why are the dual-door (non-XLB) vehicles used on the 4 in particular?

Also, are there enough Air/Skylink Gemini 3s to run all the 100, 200, 300 and 400 journeys, or will the Airlink XLBs be coming back?

 

[Auld reekie]

Most of them are at Longstone, and the 4 will be running from Longstone from the 12th.


Routes operated from Central as of the 12th, 1, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 24, 26, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 42, 47, 48, 49, X26, X29, X31, X37, X44
Routes from Longstone as of the 12th, 2, 3, 4, 20, 21, 22, 23, 25, 30, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38, 44, 63, 200, 300, 400, X29, X33

It’s a few years since the 4 was based in Longstone.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Also, are there enough Air/Skylink Gemini 3s to run all the 100, 200, 300 and 400 journeys, or will the Airlink XLBs be coming back?

Yes, as the 300 for example is hourly and part route (Surgeons' Hall to Airport). So only needs 2 buses. 200 is also hourly. 100 is going from every 30 to every 15 min so needs 4 buses instead of 2.

B8L should return once it has bandit screens although not sure when that will be. Hopefully someone can answer that.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Yes, as the 300 for example is hourly and part route (Surgeons' Hall to Airport). So only needs 2 buses. 200 is also hourly. 100 is going from every 30 to every 15 min so needs 4 buses instead of 2.

B8L should return once it has bandit screens although not sure when that will be. Hopefully someone can answer that.

Ah, thanks for that.

 

[ScotRail158725]

So Hall did want to leave...



I don't personally think the council getting more involved with Lothian is really a good thing as it may lead to more cutbacks in the city (i'm thinking specifically with the 22) and could see less focus on the subsidiaries like ECB. The good with with Lothian's City network at the moment is that it's mostly viable while offering many options and great connections through the city, i fear with more tram expansions we could see many of the bus links lost as the council will not want a bus and tram route competing.

i can also see the 22 going. if the council dont want buses/trams competing then they should never have built the trams in the first place. money would have been better spent on upgrading the bus network and the money spent on edinburgh gateway would have been better spent on a national rail branch to the airport rather than trams

 

[Bus9120UK]

i can also see the 22 going. if the council dont want buses/trams competing then they should never have built the trams in the first place. money would have been better spent on upgrading the bus network and the money spent on edinburgh gateway would have been better spent on a national rail branch to the airport rather than trams

I see what you mean by the 22, but the 22 is one of my locals, and the service does get busy, for schools, shopping, etc and it woukd not be best for it to be removed from the network/

 

[ScotRail158725]

I see what you mean by the 22, but the 22 is one of my locals, and the service does get busy, for schools, shopping, etc and it woukd not be best for it to be removed from the network/

i know the 22 is used a lot, i use it a lot. usually full on saturdays especially with tourists on the ocean terminal section and throughout the week with people going to the gyle/ot and its always busy at peak with gyle estate staff and i think it should stay but in the councils eyes the whole things is a competitor to the tram and it is the reason why a lot of people dont use the tram so they’ll almost certainly be scrapping it or at least trying to

 

[Jordan Adam]

I don't think the 22 would get axed entirely, but it certainly wouldn't survive in it's current format as it would be directly competing with the tram.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’m sure if you swapped one end of the 22 with something else (the original 25 Restalrig swap plan probably isn’t substantial enough) then it’s fine. 22 should really be Gyle to City then head East or South rather than down Leith Walk to Restalrig. Possibly send it to the Jewel and send the 4 to Ocean Terminal? I know that doesn’t work (I’m just kind of making this up on the spot) but you get the idea.