Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[buslad1988]

eastbound about 3 buses get through at most before they go red same with the st david street onto princess street heading west they get the same short time. This only gets worse with the trams (worst investment in edinburgh) wich disrupt it even more

And factor in addition to this:
- extra 10, 11, 12 and 16’s on diversion
- peaktime X services
- Airlink
- LCB services
- ECB services (which seem to take a life time to load btw)
- All Stagecoach express services
- All First services
- Tourist coaches
- Taxis

And not forgetting length of XLB’s and stagey coaches.

Recipe for disaster... as we’re seeing to full effect!

 

[overthewater]

Citylink and Stagecoach went back to full lenght of Princes street because the zebra crossing on Frederick street/ George street were an knightmare. The council don't really give a crap because if there did something would have been done alright. There are plans afoot to make part of Edinburgh bus only but only a short section ie Bank street/North Bank street.. The group wanted all of the mound and George IV bridge but the council were like we need car access to the City chamber??

There should just Ban all cars from Queensferry street, the Mound, St Andrews SQ and Waverly bridge. Queen street would have NO parking and the two lanes fully open both ways for all traffic.

All Parking in George street ripped up, with Stagecoach service return to operate via western section before going down Freedick street.

 

[Auld reekie]

Citylink and Stagecoach went back to full lenght of Princes street because the zebra crossing on Frederick street/ George street were an knightmare. The council don't really give a crap because if there did something would have been done alright. There are plans afoot to make part of Edinburgh bus only but only a short section ie Bank street/North Bank street.. The group wanted all of the mound and George IV bridge but the council were like we need car access to the City chamber??

There should just Ban all cars from Queensferry street, the Mound, St Andrews SQ and Waverly bridge. Queen street would have NO parking and the two lanes fully open both ways for all traffic.

All Parking in George street ripped up, with Stagecoach service return to operate via western section before going down Freedick street.

Edinburgh Council couldn’t run a bath.

 

[oldman]

All Parking in George street ripped up, with Stagecoach service return to operate via western section before going down Freedick street.

From Transport Scotland:

Award: £20.32 million

In line with the aspirations of Edinburgh’s City Centre Transformation, this project will see significant removal of parking spaces from George Street, widening of footways and creation of a new segregated, bi-directional cycleway. Existing crossings will be improved, and pocket parks will be created at points along the street, creating new seating and rest areas for pedestrians, encouraging people to make sustainable and active transport choices. The project will connect to existing walking and cycling projects, including Meadows to George Street, City Centre West to East Link and the National Cycle Network.

It will take ages to do it and they won't want to let buses back. It's all about active travel - buses are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I assume the Council has some control over bus stops and could give the Megabus/Stagecoach coaches their own segregated stops and limit them to just one stop not two. I doubt they will.

 

[takno]

From Transport Scotland:



It will take ages to do it and they won't want to let buses back. It's all about active travel - buses are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I assume the Council has some control over bus stops and could give the Megabus/Stagecoach coaches their own segregated stops and limit them to just one stop not two. I doubt they will.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/ar...n_for_george_street_and_new_town_goes_on_show is a more detailed summary of the George St plan. It's a fairly long-term aspiration, so it's not really relevant for what they do this year. The basic plan is to take out the on-street parking in the middle of the street and do something else with the space. Part of that is cycle lanes and open space. The cycle lanes should move a bit of traffic out of the way of buses though, and on the face of it there is still loads of space left over for segregated bus stops.

The longer term plan for the whole city centre http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/CET/dow...sformation_proposed_strategy_for_consultation would weed out a bunch of bus stops and services which currently run down Princes Street. Obviously I think the whole idea of buses "kissing" the city centre is grotesque and delusional, but in terms of cutting the traffic on Princes Street/George Street it is some kind of plan.

 

[ANWP Tom]

And factor in addition to this:
- extra 10, 11, 12 and 16’s on diversion
- peaktime X services
- Airlink
- LCB services
- ECB services (which seem to take a life time to load btw)
- All Stagecoach express services
- All First services
- Tourist coaches
- Taxis

And not forgetting length of XLB’s and stagey coaches.

With Regard to the princes st issue. Leith Street doesn't help the situation as proved when time keeping got better on 1,4,5,19,34,45 when it was shut.

Following changes spring to mind to ease Princes st pressure:
1, 5 and maybe the 34 going via regent road. reducing Leith street pressure.
2, 19 routed direct down queen st to west end then as 47 round the square and back on route.
3, 12s using Queen street vice princes st to West End. Maybe even doing the same with one of the 10,11 & 16
4, Reroute either the 3 or 33 to run via Haymarket-Semple St-Bristol Square-Newington.
5, Extend 140 to form an outer half circle plugging the gap down to either wester hailes or Gyle reducing cross city commutes requiring a change in the centre.
6, X50/X98/99/777 and the like to use Queen St/York Place from St Andrews Square
7, 100 George St both ways as far as possible working from St Andrews Square.
8, Send some Fife-Edinburgh X5* services along Queen Street.

Not sure if all practical but just thinking aloud

 

[Edirim]

Extend the 140 from which end? Definitely not practical at all.
Otherwise, a solid enough set of ideas especially for the 3 or 33.
A much improved timing on the traffic lights - especially at the mound in conjucntion with rose street pedestrian crossing there would go a long way along with Balmoral / Leith Street being sorted for cars.
That said more buses going Regent Road and / or going George Street would be welcomed.
Stagecoach would hate you for moving them to Queen Street. Lothian are the primary operator so its clear that we need either seperate bus stops for Megabus / Citylink / Stagecoach in town or for Lothian to re-route their buses...

 

[ANWP Tom]

140 from Penicuik via Hillend-Bypass-Wester Hailes and then as per 400 to Gyle or even extending the 21 through to Penicuik with a similar routing from Saughton

 

[ANWP Tom]

Extend the 140 from which end? Definitely not practical at all.
Otherwise, a solid enough set of ideas especially for the 3 or 33.
A much improved timing on the traffic lights - especially at the mound in conjucntion with rose street pedestrian crossing there would go a long way along with Balmoral / Leith Street being sorted for cars.
That said more buses going Regent Road and / or going George Street would be welcomed.
Stagecoach would hate you for moving them to Queen Street. Lothian are the primary operator so its clear that we need either seperate bus stops for Megabus / Citylink / Stagecoach in town or for Lothian to re-route their buses...

See above for 140 suggestion. Seems an obvious commuter gap to me Midlothian to Gyle/Airport. Completely separate route from Bonnyrigg or even Dalkeith as per 140 as far as Loanhead then via Bush 7 Hillend towards West of the city.

Expanding on the points about the centre.
10,11,12 & 19 along Queen St plus 3/33 via old town. 5 less bus routes using princes st, Plus moving Airlink to George St would mean they could either consolidate the ECB & Country Buses or Stagecoach routes onto specific stops on princes st limiting where their long dwell times have an effect.

Traffic light changes would help too as you mention especially at the Balmoral area.

 

[Edirim]

I see what you are trying to do but as a commuter from Midlothian to Ratho Station who doesn't even consider taking the 400 I would be hard fought to be swung by the 140 extending.
That said a service 500 version of your idea perhaps from Wallyford P&R then using the much talked about orbital bus route idea along the bypass (hard shoulder?/new road) would be far better with links to local routes at Straiton, Royal, Sherifhall, Hermiston etc.
It's a good idea but simply not practical to put buses on the bypass and into then traffic that its trying to encourage commuters from unless it beats that ttraffic .

Yes re bus routes, the 47 proves that the idea works albeit a long way round for it and the 36 @ West end...surely this could be fixed?

Traffic lights sequence really doesn't help and nor do the taxis...lorries and whatever else thinks it can park at the Balmoral.

 

[ScotRail158725]

4, Reroute either the 3 or 33 to run via Haymarket-Semple St-Bristol Square-Newington.

3 is a stupid suggestion as it would leave Mayfield/Dalkeith passengers with a long walk or bus change, 33 could work though

 

[ScotRail158725]

To be honest the buses in the City Centre are fine, once Leith St area works are done things should pick up a bit. whats needing altered is some traffic lights along princess street. things would be a lot smoother without trams but they dont seem to be going anywhere soom

 

[oldman]

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/ar...n_for_george_street_and_new_town_goes_on_show is a more detailed summary of the George St plan. It's a fairly long-term aspiration,

It is not relevant to this year, but at £20m I think this is now a project not an aspiration. There's a limit to how much you can spend on design consultants without actually doing anything. Part of the plan is that 'pocket parks will be created at points along the street' - they aren't going to want buses there.

As you say much of the city centre transformation aspiration is grotesque and delusional. Edinburgh is a traffic disaster area and simply saying On Yer Bike is not the answer.

Short term removing cars from the Jenners / Waverly Bridge junction would help, and perhaps somehow stopping taxis going the whole length of Princes Street.

 

[ANWP Tom]

I see what you are trying to do but as a commuter from Midlothian to Ratho Station who doesn't even consider taking the 400 I would be hard fought to be swung by the 140 extending.
That said a service 500 version of your idea perhaps from Wallyford P&R then using the much talked about orbital bus route idea along the bypass (hard shoulder?/new road) would be far better with links to local routes at Straiton, Royal, Sherifhall, Hermiston etc.
It's a good idea but simply not practical to put buses on the bypass and into then traffic that its trying to encourage commuters from unless it beats that ttraffic .

Yes re bus routes, the 47 proves that the idea works albeit a long way round for it and the 36 @ West end...surely this could be fixed?

500 does sound the ideal solution if it would work. I personal commute Penicuik to Gyle so feel your pain.

Fixing the long west end spin round would be good.

3 reason granted (thats is why i didn't say the 31) but it is a good option for the 33.

Reroutes would remove the following per a usual midweek hour
10: 5 each way
11: 5 each way
(Putting one to run as per the 5 route is a possible other option maybe)
12: 3 each way
19: 4 each way
33: 3 each way
So 20 less buses each hour in each direction along Princes St with improvement in cross city time keeping

 

[VioletEclipse]

It was horrific out at the airport today. Over a foot, 2ft in places deep with no way thorugh for buses (although a wet cyclist did...) Traffic jams were everywhere too, so no wonder some buses were running so late and with gigantic gaps in service.

My goodness me, no wonder buses were being delayed.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Just my observations on the Princes Street issues (as a passenger only). The big delay seems to be at Waverley Steps with two sets of lights in short succession the flow can be really poor. Also the two bus stops are very close together, with a lot of buses piling in there.

I don’t quite understand why South St David Street is closed off, of that was opened back up for buses, surely that could ease some flow?

I’ve also noticed some issues with the bus stop opposite Jenner’s. From what I’ve seen this is the stop used by Stagecoach and Citylink, as they have just come around the corner the sheer length of those coaches can often mean they aren’t flush into the pavement causing a bit of a log jam.

Finally, a question. Why is the the Mound junction not able to allow turning? Surely if the Airlinks could turn right there it would save some congestion?

 

[A330Alex]

Finally, a question. Why is the the Mound junction not able to allow turning? Surely if the Airlinks could turn right there it would save some congestion?

When Princes Street traffic has the green pedestrians have the green man and vice versa for Hannover Street/Mound traffic and pedestrians. Allowing traffic to turn would mean having to lengthen the Princes Street light cycle to allow for a filter which would cause know on effects to congestion on the mound.

Lots of lights are connected in the centre so small changes can impact everything else (I assume the lights at Hanover Street/George Street are tied in with the Mound lights)

 

[LiviCrazy]

When Princes Street traffic has the green pedestrians have the green man and vice versa for Hannover Street/Mound traffic and pedestrians. Allowing traffic to turn would mean having to lengthen the Princes Street light cycle to allow for a filter which would cause know on effects to congestion on the mound.

Lots of lights are connected in the centre so small changes can impact everything else (I assume the lights at Hanover Street/George Street are tied in with the Mound lights)

Thanks, I had forgotten the pedestrian aspect. It seems each minor change they do seems to increase traffic rather than the opposite.

 

[ScotRail158725]

they should stop cars using waverly bridge - st david street jn as this could alter the times of the lights and increase traffic flow

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

With Regard to the princes st issue. Leith Street doesn't help the situation as proved when time keeping got better on 1,4,5,19,34,45 when it was shut.

Following changes spring to mind to ease Princes st pressure:
1, 5 and maybe the 34 going via regent road. reducing Leith street pressure.
4, Reroute either the 3 or 33 to run via Haymarket-Semple St-Bristol Square-Newington.
8, Send some Fife-Edinburgh X5* services along Queen Street.

Not sure if all practical but just thinking aloud

1 for sure should go via Regent Road as goes straight down Easter Road. 34 would make sense too as Leith St & London Rd can be hellish at times.
I'd have all non local services head Queen Street, Charlotte Square and then either Lothian Road up to West App Rd or to Shandwick Place to keep them clear of Princes St.
As for 3 or 33, I'd actually re route 33 but go from further back. I'd go from Murayburn road, Longstone Rd, Slateford Road, Dundee St, Lauriston Place, Bristo Square, on to West Richmand St and Plesance to Dalkeith Road. My thoughts behind this was the 3 and 33 mirror each other step by step from Longstone Roundabout on Calder Road, through Gorgie, Dalry, Princes St, North and South Bridge, so removing one would not be a big loss. It would also hoover up quite a few students from the million student housing places on that corridor too. Would also be a rare bus to not go via Princes St but on the vast majority of that amended route, there are other buses that do go via PS so no one would complain about that.

 

[ScotRail158725]

1 for sure should go via Regent Road as goes straight down Easter Road. 34 would make sense too as Leith St & London Rd can be hellish at times.
I'd have all non local services head Queen Street, Charlotte Square and then either Lothian Road up to West App Rd or to Shandwick Place to keep them clear of Princes St.
As for 3 or 33, I'd actually re route 33 but go from further back. I'd go from Murayburn road, Longstone Rd, Slateford Road, Dundee St, Lauriston Place, Bristo Square, on to West Richmand St and Plesance to Dalkeith Road. My thoughts behind this was the 3 and 33 mirror each other step by step from Longstone Roundabout on Calder Road, through Gorgie, Dalry, Princes St, North and South Bridge, so removing one would not be a big loss. It would also hoover up quite a few students from the million student housing places on that corridor too. Would also be a rare bus to not go via Princes St but on the vast majority of that amended route, there are other buses that do go via PS so no one would complain about that.

the thing is we dont need to remove routes from the city centre, its fine how it is now except during the festival. the 33 is sort of dead as it is now and this way it would mirror the already more or less dead 300 so would make the 33 more or less fully irrelevant

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

the thing is we dont need to remove routes from the city centre, its fine how it is now except during the festival. the 33 is sort of dead as it is now and this way it would mirror the already more or less dead 300 so would make the 33 more or less fully irrelevant

Would disagree with you on city centre as peak hours it's mayhem, December time it's busy with shoppers, etc.. so it's more than just August time. But 33 does mirror a large percent of its entire route with 3. I do get what you mean with 33 and 300 as it would from Longstone to Bristo Square but after that it would not, however only other option for 33 would be to axe it and increase service 3. I still hear folk questioning if they can use the 300 or not, which may count to why it's not as busy as it could be.

When was the last time Lothian had a look and redraw of the maps?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Would disagree with you on city centre as peak hours it's mayhem, December time it's busy with shoppers, etc.. so it's more than just August time. But 33 does mirror a large percent of its entire route with 3. I do get what you mean with 33 and 300 as it would from Longstone to Bristo Square but after that it would not, however only other option for 33 would be to axe it and increase service 3. I still hear folk questioning if they can use the 300 or not, which may count to why it's not as busy as it could be.

When was the last time Lothian had a look and redraw of the maps?

i would say axing the 33 and defiantely up the 3s frequency, the 3 is my local route and is usually always at least half full coming in and out the city (south end) especailly during the festival/peak times where its always full and standing, the same can be said for the 31/37

Something else to consider is how services that go to the city centre but dont touch princes street dont get large loadings, the 35/300 never really get busy. the only services that dont touch princess street that do well for passengers are the 21 & 400

 

[takno]

It is not relevant to this year, but at £20m I think this is now a project not an aspiration. There's a limit to how much you can spend on design consultants without actually doing anything. Part of the plan is that 'pocket parks will be created at points along the street' - they aren't going to want As you say much of the city centre transformation aspiration is grotesque and delusional. Edinburgh is a traffic disaster area and simply saying On Yer Bike is not the answer.

Short term removing cars from the Jenners / Waverly Bridge junction would help, and perhaps somehow stopping taxis going the whole length of Princes Street.

It is not relevant to this year, but at £20m I think this is now a project not an aspiration. There's a limit to how much you can spend on design consultants without actually doing anything. Part of the plan is that 'pocket parks will be created at points along the street' - they aren't going to want buses there.

As you say much of the city centre transformation aspiration is grotesque and delusional. Edinburgh is a traffic disaster area and simply saying On Yer Bike is not the answer.

Short term removing cars from the Jenners / Waverly Bridge junction would help, and perhaps somehow stopping taxis going the whole length of Princes Street.

The bit that's grotesque is the use of the word "kissing", and the bit that's delusional is that people are going to be happy to change at some mini bus station onto a hopper to get where they want to be in town. Otherwise i think making traffic other than public transport unwelcome and opening up the centre to walking and cycling is probably the only way it can be made to work in a few years time.

In reference to the mini parks on George st, my understanding was that they would just mean the carriageway being slewed so that they could take up half the width of the current street, rather than the road being blocked completely. You'd presumably have bus stops between these parks. Haven't read the document recently though

 

[Darklord8899]

Finally, a question. Why is the the Mound junction not able to allow turning? Surely if the Airlinks could turn right there it would save some congestion?

The right turn from Princes St to mound (and left turn from Mound to Princes St) were removed because of the Tram stop.

i would say axing the 33 and defiantely up the 3s frequency, the 3 is my local route and is usually always at least half full coming in and out the city (south end) especailly during the festival/peak times where its always full and standing, the same can be said for the 31/37

..... it never helps when 427 with its massive luggage racks is put on the 3.... pure madness....

Something else to consider is how services that go to the city centre but dont touch princes street dont get large loadings, the 35/300 never really get busy. the only services that dont touch princess street that do well for passengers are the 21 & 400

..... I use the 300 every day (Sighthill to Southside) I'm very happy with the fact it misses the bridges, princes St and West end .... my only grumble is in the afternoons (2-6pm) buses can be full to the gunnels, even from Newington/Southside, a 15 min frequency, rather than the cut 25 min frequency (4-5 ish from) Southside would be better or even some short workings Nicholson Sq to Airport would help....

 

[takno]

..... I use the 300 every day (Sighthill to Southside) I'm very happy with the fact it misses the bridges, princes St and West end .... my only grumble is in the afternoons (2-6pm) buses can be full to the gunnels, even from Newington/Southside, a 15 min frequency, rather than the cut 25 min frequency (4-5 ish from) Southside would be better or even some short workings Nicholson Sq to Airport would help....

Indeed, wouldn't want it to be any slower. As it is I've watched one back from the airport on a few occasions when I've got the 100 into town and walked. I always beat the 300 to Newington by about 10 minutes getting off on Princes St and walking up the mound.

 

[Darklord8899]

Indeed, wouldn't want it to be any slower. As it is I've watched one back from the airport on a few occasions when I've got the 100 into town and walked. I always beat the 300 to Newington by about 10 minutes getting off on Princes St and walking up the mound.

....I never take the 3 home in the afternoon, in fact I've let the 3 go and waited the extra 10mins for the 300 as I'll still be home before the 3! (Plus the 3 is often 427.... nae chance of getting a seat downstairs..... I have arthritic knees so upstairs is out the question)

 

[overthewater]

The best idea would be to make the 3/33 a joint 7/8mins service and both, with a new no50 covering the old 33 between Princes street and P&R. ?

 

[Auld reekie]

To be honest the buses in the City Centre are fine, once Leith St area works are done things should pick up a bit. whats needing altered is some traffic lights along princess street. things would be a lot smoother without trams but they dont seem to be going anywhere soom

Are you having a laugh about the city centre being fine?
These problems have been there long before the Leith Street chaos.

 

[Auld reekie]

they should stop cars using waverly bridge - st david street jn as this could alter the times of the lights and increase traffic flow

Spot on.