Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[OmniCity999]

Duplicate.

 

[OmniCity999]

Yes, but which? If you reduce frequency with bigger buses you maintain capacity not boost it. Given the chronic problems of bunching on many routes, reducing 10 minute frequencies to 15 is not a good idea. I'd accept a 15 min frequency on the 16 if it was going to turn up every 15 but I know it wouldn't - as it is it's often a 20 minute wait with a lot of short running as well.

It's routes which are better than every 10 (22, peak hour 11) where the bigger buses might save PVR without doing much damage to the service. And the 26 is one which might use some capacity increase.

Their slightly reducing the frequency on routes and adding these in instead of regular deckers.

Certain routes along Morningside and Edinburghs South side are to receive these buses.

I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm telling you what I was told. Routes had already been decided back in November.

 

[tbtc]

Reduce frequency by up to 5 minutes on certain routes and boost capacity. So they are then able to utilise stock elsewhere / get rid of Euro 3/4 vehicles quicker.

One problem with that is that (for whatever reason) Lothian don't have many frequent cross city corridors.

Some big cities don't have many cross city services (because the city is so big like Birmingham, because the bus companies were split into two distinct regional areas like Manchester or NewcastleGateshead, because the city is close to the water like Dundee or because a decision was taken that the city centre layout wasn't suitable for "through" services like Nottingham).

But of the ones that do (Glasgow, Leeds, Sheffield, Bristol etc) tend to have some corridors where multiple routes combine to give a frequency much more than every ten minutes (e.g. the 38/38A/38B/38C/38E in Glasgow, or the 60/61 in Glasgow or the 2/3/12/13 in Leeds or the 49/50 in Leeds).

Lothian buses do operate cross city services but have never had many single routes better than every ten minutes (the 22 and 26 being obvious exceptions). Whilst there are some corridors where a frequent service is provided by combined routes (e.g. the 10/11/16 from Leith Walk to Morningside) it isn't advertised as such - all single timetables. If the 10/11/16 do co-ordinate then great but you'd have to read three timetables to find out.

Instead, Lothian have a lot of corridors where there's a frequent bus into town (e.g. the 3/25 are every five minutes from Calder Road to Waverley) but then go different ways out the other side of town (in the case of the 3/25, one goes down Leith Walk, one over the Bridges).

Cutting a five minute frequency down to a six minute frequency doesn't sound like a big cut - it's still frequent enough for most passengers not to need a timetable - but cutting a single route down from every ten to every twelve minutes seems a bigger cut - it's the threshold at which some people will no longer "turn up and go".

Plus there's the thing that a cut to a cross city route like the 60/61 in Glasgow can happen in isolation - services are still co-ordinated on both sides of the city centre. But if you cut the 3/25 to every twelve minutes each then what about the services that they co-ordinated with elsewhere (e.g. the 3 and 33/49 are every five minutes to Dakleith, or the 25 maybe co-ordinates with the 49 from Leith Walk to Lochend).

So it's not as simple as it would be in some cities.

the 26 is one which might use some capacity increase.

The Portobello - Princes Street was every five minutes in LRT days (15,26,85,86), and Princes Street - Clermiston every five minutes (26, 69, 85, 86) later replaced by the 26 every five minutes on its own (the 15 diverted at Mountcastle).

So the current frequency seems a little on the low side (yes, there's the 45/124 at the Portobello end but they also serve other markets), one where bigger vehicles might not require any frequency increase IMHO.

As someone who uses Seafield Road regularly to travel to/from work I’d say to send a bus service along there would be a very bad idea. Frequent hold ups/delays and rush hour tailbacks would have a knock on effect throughout the rest of any route which served it. You often see 19’s and 42’s held up just trying to get in and out of Marine garage.

The routes they already use through Lochend/Craigentinny are probably the best (and most reliable) options to get from Leith to Portobello although often Wakefield Avenue becomes congested at rush hour too with queues to get onto Portobello Road. The whole area around Kings Road will only get worse in the next few years though with the amount of developments in the facinity.

Portobello used to have good penetration of Leith with the 2/12/32/52 but the current service (21/49) is badly co-ordinated and doesn't run north of Ferry Road. I'd consider replacing a chunk of the 49 with a Fort Kinnaird - Portobello - Lochend - Leith - Ocean Terminal service - co-ordinated with the 21 over common sections - and maybe terminate the existing 49 at Lochend?

 

[buslad1988]

Portobello used to have good penetration of Leith with the 2/12/32/52 but the current service (21/49) is badly co-ordinated and doesn't run north of Ferry Road. I'd consider replacing a chunk of the 49 with a Fort Kinnaird - Portobello - Lochend - Leith - Ocean Terminal service - co-ordinated with the 21 over common sections - and maybe terminate the existing 49 at Lochend?

I’d imagine it must be very difficult to try and co-ordinate so many routes in different places/corridors; especially when you have to take into account peak/non-peak etc. I’m sure Lothian would have been trying to do this where/when they can already.

I agree the 49 does need some kind of adjustment to the route (it’s far too long) and can actually be confusing in places like RIE where Fort Kinnaird can also be reached by the 400 (and far quicker also!).

Lochend does need some adjustments. You could argue it’s over bused at the moment with 15, 19, 21, 25 and 34 all zig-zagging across various places. Also the Restalrig end of the 25 always looks fairly quiet after the Foot of the Walk - perhaps they’d be better terminating the 49 at Restalrig and continue the 25 through to Portobello instead!?

There are so many options and alternative route ideas which they could try across the whole city it just depends how radical Lothian would want to shake things up!

I’d be against introducing a direct service from Portobello to Ocean Terminal though. As long as the 21 continues to run to/from the Kirkgate Centre there are numerous services which you can connect with there. Most people already have ridacards/concession cards or day tickets anyway.

One thing I’ve always wondered about is why there are no direct services from London Road/Abbeyhill area that go up and down Leith Walk.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I’d be against introducing a direct service from Portobello to Ocean Terminal though. As long as the 21 continues to run to/from the Kirkgate Centre there are numerous services which you can connect with there. Most people already have ridacards/concession cards or day tickets anyway.

I think having a direct link like that could work if done properly, for example say extending the 140 from Musselburgh to Ocean Terminal via Portobello, Fillyside, Seafield and Leith like the old 129. which would restore old links like Seafield to Portobello and introduce new ones, (Midlothian/East Lothian to Leith/Ocean Terminal). It could also come as an faster alternative to the 21 for travel to Leith walk, though the chances of that happening are very minimal.

Also since Brighton place is closed for a year now and the 42/49 don’t officially service Portobello anymore, are the new links they are temporarily creating going to be beneficial in the long run? because now you could directly get to Leith or Craigmillar on one bus in Northfield.

 

[317 forever]

Given that quite a few ex-Metroline Volvo B9TLs were diverted to new West Lothian routes, I wonder whether many Tridents are still in service? And if so, whether for example just Mon-Fri outside central Edinburgh on route 21?

 

[VioletEclipse]

Given that quite a few ex-Metroline Volvo B9TLs were diverted to new West Lothian routes, I wonder whether many Tridents are still in service? And if so, whether for example just Mon-Fri outside central Edinburgh on route 21?

There are very few Tridents remaining, none on weekends and up to five on weekdays.

 

[317 forever]

There are very few Tridents remaining, none on weekends and up to five on weekdays.

I deliberately rode one on my Saturday in Edinburgh last May, fearing that 2018 would be their final year in service. So just as well I did really ….

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Does anyone know what is happening with https://bushobbyist.wixsite.com/bushobbyist/home site? I know there is a couple of fleet lists out there but this one is just head and shoulders above the others IMO as it's much easier to read. I can't recall but I think OmniCity999 done some of the editing? I can't remember but the list is very much appreciated. The current one however is very hard to read still as on page 9 there is a ton of text over the coach information. I don't use Facebook so I can't talk to Rob about it.

 

[OmniCity999]

Due to Rob's illness and myself working overseas, the website and fleet list will continue to be left untouched until mid March, by which time the fleet will have changed considerably. It will be a good time to update at that point.

It would appear the playing card themed liveried are coming back for atleast a special livery but maybe even preservation. 701 has been spotted with a yellow front as per its playing card theme and others are said to be following suit soon. Methinks they will be preserved, their Euro 3, they may not be able to sell the B7's in the numbers they originally thought. Also if their going to the effort of refunding them back to delivery spec. They may..

 

[buslad1988]

During to Rob's illness and myself working overseas, the website and fleet list will continue to be left untouched until mid March, by which time the fleet will have changed considerably. It will be a good time to update at that point.

It would appear the playing card themed liveried are coming back for atleast a special livery but maybe even preservation. 701 has been spotted with a yellow front as per its playing card theme and others are said to be following suit soon. Methinks they will be preserved, their Euro 3, they may not be able to sell the B7's in the numbers they originally thought. Also if their going to the effort of refunding them back to delivery spec. They may..

With the amount of preserved vehicles currently in the fleet (and not to mention the number of additional buses being done right now) surely the financial case for undertaking such projects does not add up?

Outside of the ‘Doors open day’ when do these buses actually serve any use or purpose!?

Don’t get me wrong it’s great they do it and have such a growing variety but just seems an awful waste of money when the buses only leave the garage a couple of days a year.

Pure speculation but to recoup some of the money they’ve spent on these vehicles do you think they may be considering eventually opening some kind of Lothian museum?

Edinburgh’s already got the tourists year round anyway and I think this could be a great addition. It could act as a home for the preserved fleet and then be on permanent display. Lothian can also cash in on entrance fees, their merchandise and a cafe etc.

Sorry if this is going completely off topic!

 

[ScotRail158725]

Due to Rob's illness and myself working overseas, the website and fleet list will continue to be left untouched until mid March, by which time the fleet will have changed considerably. It will be a good time to update at that point.

It would appear the playing card themed liveried are coming back for atleast a special livery but maybe even preservation. 701 has been spotted with a yellow front as per its playing card theme and others are said to be following suit soon. Methinks they will be preserved, their Euro 3, they may not be able to sell the B7's in the numbers they originally thought. Also if their going to the effort of refunding them back to delivery spec. They may..

I Called it. i knew playing cards would be coming back. I reckon Lothian will do a lot of B7 preservation due to the numbers. I think all 3 playing cards & 37/47 then the 4 madder/white brandings, One in plain Harlequin, one in current livery and one in straight lines livery. Surprised they done this with 701 and not an un-repainted one

Does anyone know what is happening with https://bushobbyist.wixsite.com/bushobbyist/home site? I know there is a couple of fleet lists out there but this one is just head and shoulders above the others IMO as it's much easier to read. I can't recall but I think OmniCity999 done some of the editing? I can't remember but the list is very much appreciated. The current one however is very hard to read still as on page 9 there is a ton of text over the coach information. I don't use Facebook so I can't talk to Rob about it.

What other fleetlist are there? If theres no good ones i can always make a doc with it considering i check the fleet daily to see whats where etc..

 

[Lothian_Bus]

I Called it. i knew playing cards would be coming back. I reckon Lothian will do a lot of B7 preservation due to the numbers. I think all 3 playing cards & 37/47 then the 4 madder/white brandings, One in plain Harlequin, one in current livery and one in straight lines livery. Surprised they done this with 701 and not an un-repainted one

What other fleetlist are there? If theres no good ones i can always make a doc with it considering i check the fleet daily to see whats where etc..

Yes 701 to be Yellow for the 3, 726 to be Black for the 44 and 751 to be Orange for 31. Posaibly a trident being painted for the 26?

 

[nesw]

UK Bus Fleet Lists http://www.ukbuses.co.uk now has a Lothian fleet list. It’s been compiled in conjunction with the Glasgow Bus website who have had a current Lothian list for a while.

 

[OmniCity999]

Yes 701 to be Yellow for the 3, 726 to be Black for the 44 and 751 to be Orange for 31. Posaibly a trident being painted for the 26?

Heard it was 725 for the 44's. All are to be complete with tartan seats, interior Blue plastics refurb and dated ads from back then. Essentially in as brand new condition.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Heard it was 725 for the 44's. All are to be complete with tartan seats, interior Blue plastics refurb and dated ads from back then. Essentially in as brand new condition.

I am sure you will be right. It's just that 726-750 were the actual buses that were branded for the 44.

 

[OmniCity999]

I am sure you will be right. It's just that 726-750 were the actual buses that were branded for the 44.

Apologies, just looked ar my origional message from my friend at Lothian, it was 726. Getting rather forgetful in my old age.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Apologies, just looked ar my origional message from my friend at Lothian, it was 726. Getting rather forgetful in my old age.

No problem at all. I was only basing that on my memory of the past. Are the 26 and 31 getting the same treatment?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Heard it was 725 for the 44's. All are to be complete with tartan seats, interior Blue plastics refurb and dated ads from back then. Essentially in as brand new condition.

Adverts? Brilliant most get them taken off. I alwasy feel like when preserving a bus all adverts from withdrawl time should be kept

 

[ScotRail158725]

UK Bus Fleet Lists http://www.ukbuses.co.uk now has a Lothian fleet list. It’s been compiled in conjunction with the Glasgow Bus website who have had a current Lothian list for a while.

Glasgow bus page is very unacurate. Still says a couple 80* have 37/47 branding

 

[ScotRail158725]

To be honest i think i want to make an actual ACCURATE fleetlist however im not good with web design so id probobly do a google spreadsheet

 

[OmniCity999]

To be honest i think i want to make an actual ACCURATE fleetlist however im not good with web design so id probobly do a google spreadsheet

I do keep ours up (mine and Rob's) but as the fleet is going through such large changes just now and I have such little time, i cant justify updating it and it then being outdated within a few days. I'm a perfectionist.

There may be a small update in the next few weeks but the next big update will be March 1st.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I do keep ours up (mine and Rob's) but as the fleet is going through such large changes just now and I have such little time, i cant justify updating it and it then being outdated within a few days. I'm a perfectionist.

There may be a small update in the next few weeks but the next big update will be March 1st.

Fair enough

 

[ScotRail158725]

Heard it was 725 for the 44's. All are to be complete with tartan seats, interior Blue plastics refurb and dated ads from back then. Essentially in as brand new condition.

Also 725 is at Seafield works hence this might be for the 44? Or it could even be just plain harlequin

 

[VioletEclipse]

701 has been spotted with a yellow front as per its playing card theme and others are said to be following suit soon.

If I'm honest then my instant reaction when I read this was YES!! Finally! While the words 'Gemini' and 'preserved' don't really fit together yet IMO, as they are still very modern compared with the rest of the preserved fleet I am still very pleased that some are now confirmed as preserved (why else would it regain it's playing card theme?) and I hope to see them at events in the near future.

If the amount of preserved Atlanteans is anything to go by then I presume at least five B7s will go into preservation, with the B9s following in a couple of years time, although seeing a harlequin Gemini on the streets again will be a bit surreal at first I think.

 

[OmniCity999]

It's not confirmed as preserved. You've jumped the gun there. It may be the case that they are painting buses up in their liveried over the years to commemorate their 100 year anniversary.

I said it may be the case that one may become preserved as they may find them tricky to sell due to their age and Euro status.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Due to Rob's illness and myself working overseas, the website and fleet list will continue to be left untouched until mid March, by which time the fleet will have changed considerably. It will be a good time to update at that point.

I never knew about Rob, hopefully it's nothing serious. Yeah, I assume by then we will have the B8L running etc so it does make sense to hold off until then. Glad it's not been fully abandoned though! It's too valuable to have been.

i cant justify updating it and it then being outdated within a few days. I'm a perfectionist.

There may be a small update in the next few weeks but the next big update will be March 1st.

Nothing wrong with being a perfectionist! I assume it was you who pushed out 3 or even 3 updates in a single week back when the list was first brought out lol.

 

[Mal]

I do keep ours up (mine and Rob's) but as the fleet is going through such large changes just now and I have such little time, i cant justify updating it and it then being outdated within a few days. I'm a perfectionist.

There may be a small update in the next few weeks but the next big update will be March 1st.

I think it's just right that we all give a very big vote of thanks to Rob and OmniCity999 for all the work they put into their fleetlists so that others can use them knowing they are as accurate as possible.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

I think it's just right that we all give a very big vote of thanks to Rob and OmniCity999 for all the work they put into their fleetlists so that others can use them knowing they are as accurate as possible.

I agree. Best Lothian fleetlist I have seen.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I agree. Best Lothian fleetlist I have seen.

I agree too, thanks a lot to them for creating it and updating it