Lost Ticket - Argh!

[SussexBoy1]

Hi all,

Just looking for some quick advice on best course of action on how likely an appeal is to work for an honest mistake, even if I am in the wrong.

Was undertaking a return journey with FGW from Barnstaple to Paddington, stopping off to change at Exeter St Davids. I had my Advance ticket and produced it for the guard on the Barnstable to Exeter train, however discovered at Exeter I'd subsequently managed to lose it - presumably I left it on the Barnstaple train.

Understood from the Exeter station staff they couldn't issue a replacement and they issued an UFN advising me that I should appeal it as I had my collection receipt with the ticket reference on, proof of purchase and that they should be able to use the reference to prove the ticket was not travelled on so there was a good chance of it being cancelled.

However, on getting home subsequent reading has shown lost tickets are not covered under the Conditions of Carriage.

Is an appeal worth it as my intentions were clearly honest or should I just pay up as I'm likely to rack up more in admin fees? A particular pain if not, the service was very severely delayed as well and of course this has happened on the longest and most expensive journey I've taken in ages!

Thank you for any help and advice.

 

[najaB]

Is an appeal worth it as my intentions were clearly honest or should I just pay up as I'm likely to rack up more in admin fees? A particular pain if not, the service was very severely delayed as well and of course this has happened on the longest and most expensive journey I've taken in ages!

How long was the delay?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Essentially the national conditions make lost ticket akin to dropping a note on the ground. The banks wouldn't reimburse you would they?

 

[gray1404]

I think you should have been sold a new ticket rather than an UPFN. This could have worked out cheaper if you had been sold an Off Peak ticket. An UPFN will be for the value of an Anytime Single.

Please give details of the ticket held which you lost, the value of the UPFN and the stations on it, please also give your planned itinerary and the actual trains you travelled on with arrival times.

Would the OP be able to claim delay repay on the value of the UPFN as this acts as an Anytime Single ticket.....

 

[najaB]

An UPFN will be for the value of an Anytime Single.

Not necessarily.

 

[island]

You need to pay the unpaid fare notice within the indicated time first and foremost. This is independent of any appeal you may choose to make –*admin fees will be added if you don't. An appeal doesn't stop the clock.

Unfortunately a lost ticket is like dropping money on the floor and there is no way to track whether the ticket was used. You should not have been so advised, but the outcome is the same despite the wrong information.

If your journey was delayed by enough time (I believe for GWR this is 60 minutes, and the cause must have been within the railway's control) you can claim compensation which can be based on the value of the UPFN.

 

[SussexBoy1]

Thank you all. In terms of those questions:

The ticket held which was lost was an advance single Barnstaple to Paddington.

The value of the UPFN is £125, and from Exeter to Paddington.

The train I was supposed to be on was at time of leaving Exeter supposed to be an hour and a half late, with the reason given a signal failure. We were advised to go Crosscountry to Bristol Parkway then FGW from there to Paddington. This left us arriving 45 mins after expected time.

Island - I was concerned if I do pay the fee despite lodging the appeal that it depriortises it - I.E that it should be easier to get a bill cancelled than money you've paid back.

My goodness I'm looking forward to paperless tickets if this proves to be an expensive lesson.

 

[gray1404]

Did you manage to locate the "lost" ticket? If so could OP claim on that too for delayed repay if they found it?

Also, some TOCs will accept a booking confirmation for delay repay purposes, if GWR will accept this, could OP also claim delay repay with that? I'm not for one moment suggesting one can use a booking confirmation email in place of the ticket for travel purposes.

 

[Merseysider]

Did you manage to locate the "lost" ticket? If so could OP claim on that too for delayed repay if they found it?

You mean claim delay repay on both the UFN and the recovered ticket? No, as that is blatantly fraudulent.

 

[najaB]

Did you manage to locate the "lost" ticket? If so could OP claim on that too for delayed repay if they found it?

I believe GWR offer passenger charter compensation rather than Delay Repay.

 

[SussexBoy1]

Also, meant to say the journey was this Sunday just gone. I have not found the ticket.

 

[gray1404]

You mean claim delay repay on both the UFN and the recovered ticket? No, as that is blatantly fraudulent.

Is it though? If you have paid for 2 tickets.

What time of day were you travelling?

 

[najaB]

Is it though? If you have paid for 2 tickets.

You can only be delayed once though.

 

[sheff1]

Were you given the UPFN because you had no means to buy a new ticket on the day ?

The reason I ask is that a Super Off Peak single from either Barnstaple or Exeter to Paddington (valid at any time on a Sunday) is considerably cheaper at £48.40.

 

[gray1404]

You can only be delayed once though.

But if you have paid for two tickets surely you are entitled to delay repay based on that.

 

[najaB]

But if you have paid for two tickets surely you are entitled to delay repay based on that.

No. You have only been delayed once. It isn't a refund, it's compensation.

 

[SussexBoy1]

Were you given the UPFN because you had no means to buy a new ticket on the day ?

The reason I ask is that a Super Off Peak single from either Barnstaple or Exeter to Paddington (valid at any time on a Sunday) is considerably cheaper at £48.40.

No, I had the means to buy a new ticket. I was given the option by station staff, however they'd (mis)informed me it would be the same price no matter what option I went with, hence I went with the UFN on thinking they'd told me an appeal was likely to work and getting a cancellation should be easier than getting my money back.

 

[jimbo99]

No. You have only been delayed once. It isn't a refund, it's compensation.

I'm sure it is right that you can only claim on one ticket. But isn't it the case that the "compensation" is linked to price you paid for the ticket rather than any actual loss suffered?

Whilst it might not be permitted, I disagee that it would be "blatantly fraudulent" to claim on both. Fraud requires (R v Ghosh) dishonesty and I think most people would think it's not dishonest to claim off two tickets if you've paid for two tickets.

 

[yorkie]

No, I had the means to buy a new ticket. I was given the option by station staff, however they'd (mis)informed me it would be the same price no matter what option I went with, hence I went with the UFN on thinking they'd told me an appeal was likely to work and getting a cancellation should be easier than getting my money back.

This is complex but it sounds like you were misadvised and overcharged. I would contact them urgently.

 

[najaB]

Whilst it might not be permitted, I disagee that it would be "blatantly fraudulent" to claim on both. Fraud requires (R v Ghosh) dishonesty and I think most people would think it's not dishonest to claim off two tickets if you've paid for two tickets.

It's dishonest as the only reason you paid for the second ticket is because you lost the first.

The notion that you can eat your cake and still have it for later comes to mind.

 

[yorkie]

Unless a photo of the original ticket was obtained I don't think a request for compensation based on the original ticket is going to be successful anyway so it's a moot point.

Compensation is due on the replacement ticket.

The cake comparison isn't really a valid one but I don't want to go off topic so I have sent you a correction via PM. These comparisons are only for amusement and/or moral argument purposes and serve no actual benefit or relevance. I'm sure it will be a talking point at the next forum meal

 

[jimbo99]

Really just wanted to make the distinction between a claim not being allowed/permitted, and being fraudulent (or even "blatantly" fraudulent as alleged earlier in the thread). For something to be fraudulent, there must be dishonesty and there is a specific two-part test for that.

Wasn't really part of the cake thing...., but PM received, "correction" or otherwise!

 

[jimbo99]

It's dishonest as the only reason you paid for the second ticket is because you lost the first.

The notion that you can eat your cake and still have it for later comes to mind.

I think many members of the public would think it reasonable that either one of the tickets is refunded (because only one was journey was made), or if this is denied, then both should be compensated because the service was delayed.

NOW, that's not the way it works, I know. And such a claim would fail. BUT, it's a stretch to say that a reaonable person would say it is dishonest to make such a claim and that the claimant ought to have known as much (which is roughly what the test for dishonesty is when trying to show fraud). Afterall, it's very likely that such a claimant would make the claims together perhaps with a covering letter in the same envelope. Hardly the hallmarks of a fraudster.

Think I'll leave it there.

Mod Note: For further discussion of this topic please see the new thread here. Please leave this thread clear for advice to the OP. Thanks!

 

[SussexBoy1]

A quick thank you to everyone offering advice. I've reluctantly paid the UFN, and separately petitioned their customer service as regards the bad advice on the replacement ticket and asking them to refund the difference - we'll see what happens!

 

[221129]

A quick thank you to everyone offering advice. I've reluctantly paid the UFN, and separately petitioned their customer service as regards the bad advice on the replacement ticket and asking them to refund the difference - we'll see what happens!

The right call imo, all this talk about delay reapy is irrelevant as the A) GWR don't offer it, and B) The delay was only 45 minutes so below the passenger charter threshold.

 

[gray1404]

Let us know what the reply is from Customer Relations at GWR. You have the option of responding to that to ask for the case to be looked at by a Manager and also the option of taking your case to Transport Focus.

Do come back on here with their reply so that, if you need to contact them again, you can get advise on what to respond so as to ensure that all the important points are covered.