Lost Parking Fine

[JamesSmith319]

So I have an issue cause by my own stupidity here..

On Tuesday I went to pick my girl friend up from the Darlington Train Station. I figured I would go and help her carry her suitcase. When I got back to the car with her things to find the fine on my window. I was actually parked under a big sign saying Executive Parking ticket holders only and had just not noticed it. I was a little annoyed as I couldn't have been any more than 10 minutes however it's not exactly a subtle sign and was my fault.

So, I've gone to pay my fine and can not find my ticket any where. I've been searching for hours on the internet and been on phone to various different people who keep giving me incorrect numbers and after a 3 hours of being on hold to various people I'm running out of ideas!

So I've turned to you fine folk! I'm just hoping that there is some one on this Forum who could please give the number I need to call in order to get this stupid thing paid off.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Urban Gateline]

You probably won't know, but who issued the "fine"?

If it was a council car park then it is enforceable and you can probably call their Parking department or do it online.

However, like most stations, it could be a private car park, where "enforcement" is done by a contractor. Fines issued by these are mostly not enforeable so you won't need to pay up! The only exception would be if the contractor happens to use the Railway Byelaws to back the "fine", however this is very unlikely!

 

[bb21]

Could you go back to the station and find out who it is that issued these fines? There should normally be signs up detailing this sort of information.

 

[michael769]

Don't worry about it they will write to the registered keeper in due course with another opportunity to pay, so it's only a problem if its a a hire car as some of those will charge you an admin fee for handling the notice.

As others have suggested not all of these demands have lawful authority. If it mentions Byelaw 14 or is issued by a council or the police you will definitely need to pay - if not do some research into the issues surrounding PPCs before you do.

 

[soil]

It looks like it's a private car park, and therefore the best thing to do is nothing (i.e. don't pay).

http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Transport/carparking/carparks.htm

"Private car parks"

"Railway Station (East Coast)
Entrance: Parkgate

Executive parking 29 spaces including 1 Blue Badge space

Short stay for 21 spaces including 3 Blue Badge spaces

Long stay for 40 spaces"

 

[maniacmartin]

It looks like it's a private car park, and therefore the best thing to do is nothing (i.e. don't pay).

http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Transport/carparking/carparks.htm

"Private car parks"

"Railway Station (East Coast)

That could just mean that it's not a council-run car park but is still a railway-run one and that the Byelaws could still be used

 

[bnm]

As others have suggested not all of these demands have lawful authority. If it mentions Byelaw 14.... you will definitely need to pay

If it mentions Byelaw 14 why would you 'definitely need to pay'?

A Railway Byelaw offence can only be heard in a magistrates court. Only then can you be fined. It the ticket is asking for a penalty payment paid direct to a Private Parking Company then it can't come under the auspices of the Byelaws.

Any ticket asking for payment and quoting Byelaw 14 is of very dubious legality.

 

[cjp]

You probably won't know, but who issued the "fine"?

If it was a council car park then it is enforceable and you can probably call their Parking department or do it online.

However, like most stations, it could be a private car park, where "enforcement" is done by a contractor. Fines issued by these are mostly not enforeable so you won't need to pay up! The only exception would be if the contractor happens to use the Railway Byelaws to back the "fine", however this is very unlikely!

Why do you say this?
The Freedom Act of 2012 lets land owners or their agents issue tickets with the registered Keeper being liable to pay the penalty.
Signage is important though.

In addition to financial penalties Local Authorities can still enforce their penalties by clamping or towing.

 

[michael769]

If it mentions Byelaw 14 why would you 'definitely need to pay'?

A Railway Byelaw offence can only be heard in a magistrates court. Only then can you be fined. It the ticket is asking for a penalty payment paid direct to a Private Parking Company then it can't come under the auspices of the Byelaws.

Well you either pay the "ticket" or on conviction the court. One way or another you get made to pay (unless the are not guilty).

Any ticket asking for payment and quoting Byelaw 14 is of very dubious legality.

That may well be true but the payment is likely to be somewhat less than the combined fine, victime surcharge and costs awarded by a court.

 

[rdwarr]

Why do you say this?
The Freedom Act of 2012 lets land owners or their agents issue tickets with the registered Keeper being liable to pay the penalty.
Signage is important though.

The only thing the Freedom Act changed was that the RK could be pursued if they didn't name the driver. The enforceability and legality of such "Penalty Charges" remained unchanged.

Much better informed people than us over at Pepipoo and MSE - I'd open a topic there.

 

[michael769]

Why do you say this?
The Freedom Act of 2012 lets land owners or their agents issue tickets with the registered Keeper being liable to pay the penalty.

Sorry but no. The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012allows for the transfer of existing liability from the driver to the keeper in the event that it is not possible to identify the driver, however it does not create any liabilities that do not already exist nor does it grant any lawful authority to ticket.

DfT guidance

 

[cjp]

Sorry but no. The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012allows for the transfer of existing liability from the driver to the keeper in the event that it is not possible to identify the driver, however it does not create any liabilities that do not already exist nor does it grant any lawful authority to ticket.

DfT guidance

I never said the Act created new liabilities.
What it does do it take away rights that previously existed and allows instead enforcement of charges against the registered keeper rather than having the problem of identifying the driver.
The statement in this thread suggesting that these charges are cannot be enforced and may so be ignored is not one I can agree with.
I am not going to argue the legislation. I simply suggest re-reading the relevant sections of the Act as to liability to pay charges contractually entered into by way of Notice given/posted, paying for your own legal advice and coming to your own conclusion.

 

[michael769]

I have read the legislation, I have also read the home office and DfT guidlines and the releant court judgements in this area including VCS vs Ibbotson and HMRC vs VCS, I am also aware of the numerous upheld appeals by the the new appeals body POPLA.

On the other hand I am also aware that Northern in particular have been summonsing for Byelaw 14, and while there are some credible doubts about these cases, as to date no case has been defended I would advise some caution when dealing with railway parking, and so I too cannot agree with an unconditional advice to ignore PPC charges in the case of railway parking.

My advice to exercise discretion and to do some research to establish the validity of any demand still stands.

 

[Swirlz]

I have read the legislation, I have also read the home office and DfT guidlines and the releant court judgements in this area including VCS vs Ibbotson and HMRC vs VCS, I am also aware of the numerous upheld appeals by the the new appeals body POPLA.

On the other hand I am also aware that Northern in particular have been summonsing for Byelaw 14, and while there are some credible doubts about these cases, as to date no case has been defended I would advise some caution when dealing with railway parking, and so I too cannot agree with an unconditional advice to ignore PPC charges in the case of railway parking.

My advice to exercise discretion and to do some research to establish the validity of any demand still stands.

At least 2 Byelaw 14 cases, (brought by Northern), have been defended.

Final update... Been to the hearing today and unfortunately found guilty, £600 costs, £100 fine and £15 victim surcharge. A bit of a rubbish conclusion.
To be honest I could of been more prepared but had loads go wrong lately and this was put on the back burner.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t70164-50.html

Northern won.

Anyway, with regards to East Coast, who I assume manage Darlington, I have found this:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...3/attach/2/Mr.Hissink FOI Review Response.pdf

 

[bnm]

That may well be true but the payment is likely to be somewhat less than the combined fine, victime surcharge and costs awarded by a court.

A threat of 'pay this penalty or we will take you to a criminal court' is of even more dubious legality.

 

[michael769]

A threat of 'pay this penalty or we will take you to a criminal court' is of even more dubious legality.

And yet as already noted it has been no impediment to northern taking cases to court.

It is possible it might cause issues if tested effectively in an appeal court, but only at high cost and some risk. Until such time as it is tested we can only refer to the successful prosecutions in the magistrates courts.

It's a lot cheaper to park properly IMO.

 

[island]

The only thing the Freedom Act changed was that the RK could be pursued if they didn't name the driver. The enforceability and legality of such "Penalty Charges" remained unchanged.

Much better informed people than us over at Pepipoo and MSE - I'd open a topic there.

I recommend not opening a topic over there, as anything suggesting the remotest possibility of a private parking charge being enforced against anyone gets drowned in a sea of "you don't have to pay, just ignore it".

With that said, there are a number of procedural steps that need to be taken in order to enforce such a charge, and many private parking companies are poor at following them.

 

[soil]

In this case the OP has lost the parking ticket, and despite best efforts cannot track it down, so this indeed the correct advice until/if anything further comes his way.

 

[Stigy]

Worth noting that Northern, I believe, enforce their own car parks. That being so, chances are they use Byelaw 14 as it should be used. Also needs bearing in mind that Byelaw 14 makes the owner liable to pay a penalty if issued, not the driver, as with private tickets.

 

[michael769]

With that said, there are a number of procedural steps that need to be taken in order to enforce such a charge, and many private parking companies are poor at following them.

What procedural steps would they be? What statute, regulation or order sets out such steps? What court precedents uphold them?

I can only again refer you to VCS vs Ibbotson and HMRC vs VCS.

However this does not help the OP at this stage, who I suspect has no wish to find himself getting bogged down by these matters. Regardless of the mechanism used to enforce the matter it is normal practice is write to the registered keeper at which time another opportunity to pay, and the best advice is to await the arrival of such notice.

 

[Swirlz]

Worth noting that Northern, I believe, enforce their own car parks. That being so, chances are they use Byelaw 14 as it should be used. Also needs bearing in mind that Byelaw 14 makes the owner liable to pay a penalty if issued, not the driver, as with private tickets.

My research has found that Northern contract G4S to manage a selection of their car parks and identify breaches of Byelaw 14.

G4S prepare an MG11 statement of witness and forward this to Northern Rail's internal prosecutor who then lay the information and subsequently issue a summons.

 

[ModernRailways]

This may not be what you want to hear but it looks like East Coast operate it. I have attached an image with a sign - viewable on Google Maps. It says it is 'Subject to Railway 0Byelaw 18' towards the bottom left.

Here's a link if the image doesn't display below: http://i.imgur.com/JXbept0.jpg

 

[Stigy]

It says it is 'Subject to Railway 0Byelaw 18' towards the bottom left.

Can't read the small stuff at the bottom, but I'd hope it doesn't refer to Byelaw 18...

 

[ModernRailways]

Can't read the small stuff at the bottom, but I'd hope it doesn't refer to Byelaw 18...

Me neither... That will teach me not to check what I type I'd just been browsing a thread that mentioned byelaw 18.

I meant to say Byelaw 14. It isn't too clear in the image but I can just make out that it says 'THIS AREA IS SUBJECT TO RAILWAY BYELAW 14'. Not too sure on the smaller writing so I would recommend OP goes back to the station and has a look and maybe goes to the information centre there to ask for any further guidance - remembering to pay this time too

 

[Stigy]

Me neither... That will teach me not to check what I type I'd just been browsing a thread that mentioned byelaw 18.

I meant to say Byelaw 14. It isn't too clear in the image but I can just make out that it says 'THIS AREA IS SUBJECT TO RAILWAY BYELAW 14'. Not too sure on the smaller writing so I would recommend OP goes back to the station and has a look and maybe goes to the information centre there to ask for any further guidance - remembering to pay this time too

A lot of TOCs state in their signage about Byelaw 14 but in reality, their tickets, usually issued by a Private Company, aren't endorsed by the Byelaws and are just a money-making tactic.

 

[ModernRailways]

A lot of TOCs state in their signage about Byelaw 14 but in reality, their tickets, usually issued by a Private Company, aren't endorsed by the Byelaws and are just a money-making tactic.

True! Although East Coast appear to run Newcastle too. I may try and get a picture of the sign their if I can next time I'm there.

Would be nice for OP to reply to us too!