Lost / forgotten railcards - solution?

[John Luxton]

I always find this section of Railforums one of the more interesting to read.

Having seen yet another recent railcard post I started thinking is there not a better way to deal with forgotten / lost cards?

I presume details of all holders of railcards are stored on a central computer somewhere?

Could it not be made possible for RPIs / Guards etc to access this info when doing checks?

Surely all it would need is a persons name / age / post code to be given and production of some other form of ID - driving licence / bank card etc.

Then their possession of card could be verified even if it wasn't with them?

Probably wouldn't take any longer to check than booking them for not having a valid ticket?

Perhaps also when booking on line the person making the reservation as well as ticking the appropriate railcard box - they would be prompted to add the railcard number which would tie the ticket to a card?

Anyway just a thought

Could it be possible or are there reasons why it isn't or hasn't been done?

 

[swt_passenger]

I presume details of all holders of railcards are stored on a central computer somewhere?

I’m pretty sure from earlier discussions, that they aren’t held centrally. But even if they were, someone other than the person being checked could be “accidentally” using the physical railcard elsewhere…

In other previous discussions, members have insisted that you need to be able to book tickets with a railcard discount, without having a railcard yet, and buy the railcard later. Also, to be able to book for your friends or relatives, without having their railcard details, etc etc…

 

[John Luxton]

I’m pretty sure from earlier discussions, that they aren’t held centrally. But even if they were, someone other than the person being checked could be “accidentally” using the physical railcard elsewhere…

In other previous discussions, members have insisted that you need to be able to book tickets with a railcard discount, without having a railcard yet, and buy the railcard later. Also, to be able to book for your friends or relatives, without having their railcard details, etc etc…

Thanks

Perhaps it wouldn't be difficult to centralise things given computer technology these days?

Would it not just be possible to ensure people actually had a railcard issued to them BEFORE buying the ticket and also make it a condition that they were in possession of the railcard numbers? Would it not tighten things up. Yes, might be a bit more inconvenient for a few but overall make revenue protection easier?

John

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks

Perhaps it wouldn't be difficult to centralise things given computer technology these days?

Would it not just be possible to ensure people actually had a railcard issued to them BEFORE buying the ticket and also make it a condition that they were in possession of the railcard numbers? Would it not tighten things up. Yes, might be a bit more inconvenient for a few but overall make revenue protection easier?

John

I agree, but watch the usual excuses come in; someone will no doubt cite data protection, then there’ll be objections to having to buy a railcard 3 months earlier than needed.

 

[Ken H]

could an image on your mobile phone of your railcard convince a guard that you were genuine?

 

[Western Sunset]

Why would TOCs want to change things; easy to catch the low-hanging fruit.

With Covid and all the travel restrictions, I'm sure that's why more people are being caught out over expired railcards. I haven't renewed my Senior one as I only used it once before the various lockdowns and am not sure if it'll be worth getting another yet. I was never sent any reminders either, which is probably another reason for so many forgetting to renew. Yes, I understand about personal responsibility, but we get so many reminders about other things, eg car tax, insurance, etc that surely it's not beyond the wit of TOCs/National Rail to do likewise if they really wanted to.

 

[zero]

I think you are conflating two separate issues - a forgotten railcard (as in the case of the military passenger), and being caught with an expired railcard (which has been surprisingly common over the past year).

When the passenger has a valid railcard but has forgotten to bring it with them, they must buy a new ticket and can get it refunded on presentation of the railcard. I don't see any real issues with this policy.

When the passenger has "forgotten" to buy a railcard they will get an out-of-court settlement or prosecution. Some people think this is unduly harsh particularly if a valid railcard was previously held but recently expired.

My view is that when someone buys a discounted ticket and cannot show a railcard, this should be treated less severely than not having a ticket at all, as they still paid something for their travel.

My idea for a more passenger-friendly solution would be to allow the purchase of a "temporary railcard" on the spot for £50, as long as the passenger is actually eligible for a railcard. This would have to be presented with ID (since it would lack a photo) and could be valid for a week which would help those with further discounted tickets to use but genuinely left their railcard at home.

The temporary railcard could be refunded (once per X months) on presentation of a normal railcard, or converted to a normal railcard if they don't have one, without needing to determine whether the passenger honestly thought their railcard was in date, or whether they were deliberately evading part of the fare.

 

[John Luxton]

I think you are conflating two separate issues - a forgotten railcard (as in the case of the military passenger), and being caught with an expired railcard (which has been surprisingly common over the past year).

When the passenger has a valid railcard but has forgotten to bring it with them, they must buy a new ticket and can get it refunded on presentation of the railcard. I don't see any real issues with this policy.

When the passenger has "forgotten" to buy a railcard they will get an out-of-court settlement or prosecution. Some people think this is unduly harsh particularly if a valid railcard was previously held but recently expired.

My view is that when someone buys a discounted ticket and cannot show a railcard, this should be treated less severely than not having a ticket at all, as they still paid something for their travel.

My idea for a more passenger-friendly solution would be to allow the purchase of a "temporary railcard" on the spot for £50, as long as the passenger is actually eligible for a railcard. This would have to be presented with ID (since it would lack a photo) and could be valid for a week which would help those with further discounted tickets to use but genuinely left their railcard at home.

The temporary railcard could be refunded (once per X months) on presentation of a normal railcard, or converted to a normal railcard if they don't have one, without needing to determine whether the passenger honestly thought their railcard was in date, or whether they were deliberately evading part of the fare.

I was talking about the forgotten railcard not the forgotten to to renew situation.

It just appeared to me that if there was a central record of who held a current card and it could be accessed by guards and inspectors etc they could just determine that someone had a valid card even if it wasn't produced. Would not be much different than police running checks on driving licences, from what I have gathered from various fly on the wall police series they no longer have to see a licence to know whether someone is licenced to drive as that can be checked, much they can check insurance at the roadside without using paperwork.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2022 ==

Why would TOCs want to change things; easy to catch the low-hanging fruit.

With Covid and all the travel restrictions, I'm sure that's why more people are being caught out over expired railcards. I haven't renewed my Senior one as I only used it once before the various lockdowns and am not sure if it'll be worth getting another yet. I was never sent any reminders either, which is probably another reason for so many forgetting to renew. Yes, I understand about personal responsibility, but we get so many reminders about other things, eg car tax, insurance, etc that surely it's not beyond the wit of TOCs/National Rail to do likewise if they really wanted to.

I turned 60 in autumn 2019 and retired at the end of the year.

In early 2020 I bought a 3 year Senior Railcard (I had never bothered with them in the 1970s as a student) which was my first card, due to Covid and my dislike of masks I didn't actually start using it until 2021 and have used it a number of times now.

I would see from now on buying a three year card (they are cheaper) as something I will be doing every three years irrespective of how much I use it as it is useful to have, will just become a regular thing - thus I won't be looking for a reminder though I am sure when I made the online application there was a box to tick if one wanted one sending.

John

 

[seagull]

That could work IF the passenger had, and was willing to show, photo ID if they had forgotten the Railcard. To prevent any number of friends of a genuine holder claiming to be that person.

 

[zero]

I was talking about the forgotten railcard not the forgotten to to renew situation.

It just appeared to me that if there was a central record of who held a current card and it could be accessed by guards and inspectors etc they could just determine that someone had a valid card even if it wasn't produced. Would not be much different than police running checks on driving licences, from what I have gathered from various fly on the wall police series they no longer have to see a licence to know whether someone is licenced to drive as that can be checked, much they can check insurance at the roadside without using paperwork.

But you'd need to show ID, unless the guard's device can download the photo instantly, in which case you'd still need to spell out your name for everyone to hear

 

[Llanigraham]

My idea for a more passenger-friendly solution would be to allow the purchase of a "temporary railcard" on the spot for £50, as long as the passenger is actually eligible for a railcard. This would have to be presented with ID (since it would lack a photo) and could be valid for a week which would help those with further discounted tickets to use but genuinely left their railcard at home.

The temporary railcard could be refunded (once per X months) on presentation of a normal railcard, or converted to a normal railcard if they don't have one, without needing to determine whether the passenger honestly thought their railcard was in date, or whether they were deliberately evading part of the fare.

In the case of a Disabled Person's Railcard, how would the person selling this temporary card know they were still entitled?

 

[MotCO]

How about a different approach? Most people I suspect pick up their tickets within a few days of the journey, either at the ticket office or a TVM. If at a Ticket Office, it should be a condition that the ticket officer has to be shown a valid railcard, and there should be another voucher issued confirming the possession of a valid railcard to accompany the ticket.

If the ticket is picked up at a TVM, then the action of printing a ticket requiring a railcard should link back to a data base confirming that a current railcard is linked to the ticket holder's account. Again a railcard confirmation voucher can be printed at the same time as the ticket is printed; if there is no linked railcard, the ticket will not print or a warning may be flashed on the screen.

In both cases, there can be no excuse for not having either the actual railcard or a voucher confirming the ticket holder has a valid railcard. It does require the ticket holder to register the railcard on his ticket account either at the time of ticket purchase, or before the ticket is printed.

[However, this will not happen since there is no incentive from the TOCs point of view to invest in such changes.]

 

[island]

I always find this section of Railforums one of the more interesting to read.

Having seen yet another recent railcard post I started thinking is there not a better way to deal with forgotten / lost cards?

I presume details of all holders of railcards are stored on a central computer somewhere?

Could it not be made possible for RPIs / Guards etc to access this info when doing checks?

Surely all it would need is a persons name / age / post code to be given and production of some other form of ID - driving licence / bank card etc.

Then their possession of card could be verified even if it wasn't with them?

Probably wouldn't take any longer to check than booking them for not having a valid ticket?

Perhaps also when booking on line the person making the reservation as well as ticking the appropriate railcard box - they would be prompted to add the railcard number which would tie the ticket to a card?

Anyway just a thought

Could it be possible or are there reasons why it isn't or hasn't been done?

One of the basic problems with this approach is that most Railcards do not require a photo.

Therefore, the original Railcard could be lent out to someone else whilst the person who purchased the card then travels as normal and follows this "verification" process if inspected.

 

[mmh]

But you'd need to show ID, unless the guard's device can download the photo instantly, in which case you'd still need to spell out your name for everyone to hear

Your name is not confidential.

 

[RY3365]

Why would TOCs want to change things; easy to catch the low-hanging fruit.

With Covid and all the travel restrictions, I'm sure that's why more people are being caught out over expired railcards. I haven't renewed my Senior one as I only used it once before the various lockdowns and am not sure if it'll be worth getting another yet. I was never sent any reminders either, which is probably another reason for so many forgetting to renew. Yes, I understand about personal responsibility, but we get so many reminders about. I always find this section of Railforums one of the more interesting to read.

Having seen yet another recent railcard post I started thinking is there not a better way to deal with forgotten / lost cards?

I presume details of all holders of railcards are stored on a central computer somewhere?

Could it not be made possible for RPIs / Guards etc to access this info when doing checks?

Surely all it would need is a persons name / age / post code to be given and production of some other form of ID - driving licence / bank card etc.

Then their possession of card could be verified even if it wasn't with them?

Probably wouldn't take any longer to check than booking them for not having a valid ticket?

Perhaps also when booking on line the person making the reservation as well as ticking the appropriate railcard box - they would be prompted to add the railcard number which would tie the ticket to a card?

Anyway just a thought

Could it be possible or are there reasons why it isn't or hasn't been done?

I always find this section of Railforums one of the more interesting to read.

Having seen yet another recent railcard post I started thinking is there not a better way to deal with forgotten / lost cards?

I presume details of all holders of railcards are stored on a central computer somewhere?

Could it not be made possible for RPIs / Guards etc to access this info when doing checks?

Surely all it would need is a persons name / age / post code to be given and production of some other form of ID - driving licence / bank card etc.

Then their possession of card could be verified even if it wasn't with them?

Probably wouldn't take any longer to check than booking them for not having a valid ticket?

Perhaps also when booking on line the person making the reservation as well as ticking the appropriate railcard box - they would be prompted to add the railcard number which would tie the ticket to a card?

Anyway just a thought

Could it be possible or are there reasons why it isn't or hasn't been done?

These ate my thoughts exactly! For reference I’m the OP on the thread who has forgotten their railcard so have spent a lot of the last few days been thinking about a better solution also. Whilst this doesn’t exactly reflect the T&Cs surely when you purchase a railcard you are in fact purchasing the “right” to travel for a discount I.e. it is essentially an intangible piece of property - the physical/digital railcard is proof but it is not conclusive and provided you do in fact rightfully hold a railcard then there shouldn’t really be an issue (which of course would be helped by the system you describe as with car MoTs etc where it can be checked on a central system, after all railcards have numbers for a reason?!)

 

[skyhigh]

How about a different approach? Most people I suspect pick up their tickets within a few days of the journey, either at the ticket office or a TVM. If at a Ticket Office, it should be a condition that the ticket officer has to be shown a valid railcard, and there should be another voucher issued confirming the possession of a valid railcard to accompany the ticket.

If the ticket is picked up at a TVM, then the action of printing a ticket requiring a railcard should link back to a data base confirming that a current railcard is linked to the ticket holder's account. Again a railcard confirmation voucher can be printed at the same time as the ticket is printed; if there is no linked railcard, the ticket will not print or a warning may be flashed on the screen.

In both cases, there can be no excuse for not having either the actual railcard or a voucher confirming the ticket holder has a valid railcard. It does require the ticket holder to register the railcard on his ticket account either at the time of ticket purchase, or before the ticket is printed.

[However, this will not happen since there is no incentive from the TOCs point of view to invest in such changes.]

How does that deal with the situation of person A (who holds a valid railcard) purchasing a ticket and collecting it with the voucher confirming they have a valid railcard then giving both to person B (who has no railcard) to use?

 

[MotCO]

How does that deal with the situation of person A (who holds a valid railcard) purchasing a ticket and collecting it with the voucher confirming they have a valid railcard then giving both to person B (who has no railcard) to use?

I knew there would be a snag somewhere

 

[61653 HTAFC]

could an image on your mobile phone of your railcard convince a guard that you were genuine?

Are railcards not available as a digital format in the bright future of 2022? Somewhat surprising given that we're generally being encouraged to move away from paper/card tickets. Added bonus, it would be harder to "lend to your mate at uni", and harder to forget (because who habitually leaves the house without their smartphone these days?).

 

[RY3365]

Are railcards not available as a digital format in the bright future of 2022? Somewhat surprising given that we're generally being encouraged to move away from paper/card tickets. Added bonus, it would be harder to "lend to your mate at uni", and harder to forget (because who habitually leaves the house without their smartphone these days?).

A lot of them are but the armed forces one isn’t (neither is the veterans one).

 

[randyrippley]

get all rail users to have an electronic ID chip embedded in their forearm.
Then assign all sales of a card or ticket to that chip. Guard just needs a chip reader connected to the ticket database to see what the customer has purchased.
Taking it further you could use it to replace Oyster cards and suchlike

 

[jamiearmley]

could an image on your mobile phone of your railcard convince a guard that you were genuine?

No. In the same way that a picture of a £20 note isn't going to be accepted in payment.
Further, i am beginning to lose count of the number of obviously doctored images of railcards : and for that matter, tickets : which i am having to deal with on a regular basis.

For me, the solution is to scrap ALL railcards, and cut ALL fares by 33%.

I reckon the cost savings would be phenomenal, as would the benefits.
Only one man's opinion, however.

 

[Mikey C]

Are railcards not available as a digital format in the bright future of 2022? Somewhat surprising given that we're generally being encouraged to move away from paper/card tickets. Added bonus, it would be harder to "lend to your mate at uni", and harder to forget (because who habitually leaves the house without their smartphone these days?).

My Network Card is on my phone. It's stored in a Railcard App

 

[miami]

If you want to attract more people to the railway (which the railway needs to do, both for revenue and for political purposes), scrap them completely, and either

1) Just give the discounts to everyone
Or
2) Offer a free journey with every X ticket purchases, like coffee shops do

Eliminates the bad press (look at the disputes forum at the moment at the number of people caught out with threats of court action and fines on their first trip on the railway for 18 months)

 

[MattRat]

get all rail users to have an electronic ID chip embedded in their forearm.
Then assign all sales of a card or ticket to that chip. Guard just needs a chip reader connected to the ticket database to see what the customer has purchased.
Taking it further you could use it to replace Oyster cards and suchlike

I hope this is a joke. If it isn't, then is it any wonder why conspiracy theorists exist?

 

[randyrippley]

I hope this is a joke. If it isn't, then is it any wonder why conspiracy theorists exist?

The technology is cheap and available now.

 

[MattRat]

The technology is cheap and available now.

And conspiracy theorists will say you are trying to track them. Well done (sarcasm).

 

[John Luxton]

Are railcards not available as a digital format in the bright future of 2022? Somewhat surprising given that we're generally being encouraged to move away from paper/card tickets. Added bonus, it would be harder to "lend to your mate at uni", and harder to forget (because who habitually leaves the house without their smartphone these days?).

The trouble I see with digital tickets and railcards is what happens if the battery goes flat, phone breaks or is lost during a journey and then you end up being prosecuted or penalty fared because you can't show a valid ticket!

Whilst I have bought quite a few digi tickets recently I still print them out despite them being downloaded to the phone and use them at the gateline and to show RPIs etc.

I like the security of a tangible ticket and railcard.

Now don't get me wrong I am very much into technology and was one of those who cut their teeth on the BBC Micro in the 1980s and as a teacher taught ICT as a subject for much of my career.

Despite this though I still want a ticket!

 

[miami]

The trouble I see with digital tickets and railcards is what happens if the battery goes flat, phone breaks or is lost during a journey and then you end up being prosecuted or penalty fared because you can't show a valid ticket!

What if your wallet gets lost during a journey?

 

[John Luxton]

What if your wallet gets lost during a journey?

I don't keep my ticket in my wallet.

It is generally either in my shirt breast pocket for the journey along with my railcard which is in a small leather wallet and can generally feel its presence - I doubt it would pop out of there.

With any return bit if a print out stored safely in my camera bag. I won't lose my camera bag!!!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The trouble I see with digital tickets and railcards is what happens if the battery goes flat, phone breaks or is lost during a journey and then you end up being prosecuted or penalty fared because you can't show a valid ticket!

Whilst I have bought quite a few digi tickets recently I still print them out despite them being downloaded to the phone and use them at the gateline and to show RPIs etc.

I like the security of a tangible ticket and railcard.

Now don't get me wrong I am very much into technology and was one of those who cut their teeth on the BBC Micro in the 1980s and as a teacher taught ICT as a subject for much of my career.

Despite this though I still want a ticket!

The battery issue is something that will always be an issue with anything to do with smartphones, but that hasn't stopped some people relying on Apple pay or Google pay for all their purchases. Particularly in London, where the use of phones at ticket barriers on LU is commonplace.
Personally, on the rare occasions I'm in London I'll continue to use a PAYG Oyster for as long as they work, because my phone is generally carried in a bag rather than a pocket. Likewise I won't use my contactless bank card because it just isn't as convenient having to open my wallet at every barrier.
That said, I prefer old fashioned paper tickets where possible, mainly because I'm sentimental about them. E-tickets with QR codes seem more commonplace on the continent particularly for cut-price journeys such as those booked through RailEurope. Having a printed copy of the QR code is a good backup in that case, especially as charging a phone might not be so easy.