Lost e-tickets VTWC

[boing_uk]

Evening all.

I have a question for the experts on here.

A friend of mine has had her belongings stolen, including all her cash and the record of her e-ticket. Although we had, at our end, access to the e-ticket and all the reference numbers.

Gate line staff at Euston refused permission to travel and all we got from Virgin Facebook messaging was a bit of a mish mash but told two things;

1) “need a valid ticket to travel, end of” followed by;

2) “need to buy a ticket from a staffed station to ensure permission to travel”

So... we’re in Blackburn and the nearest staffed station might be Preston, but it’s 20 miles away and definitely was not within travel distance to fulfil the requirements specified before departure even if we could.

Regardless of that, Virgin responded well after the departure of the last service.

So, my questions are:

1) Is there a mechanism in the rail ticketing system to allow a traveller who has lost their travel details and ability to pay, to board a train without documents or a ticket and to pay later?

2) Is there a mechanism in the rail ticketing system to allow a third party to pay for the required travel ticket AFTER the fact and after boarding, via an online system? (Bearing in mind the station staff availability in Lancashire late in the evening, particularly Blackburn).

3) Despite being able to provide ticket and booking details at this end, should the gate line staff have allowed travel and sorted the situation while the traveller was en-route?

This was an honest situation of loss of property and travel information and there was no issue in paying for a ticket to travel by the folks here in Blackburn.

But given the hour, the fact it was the last train to Manchester from Euston and the timescales from loss/theft of property to departure of the last service, surely there has to have been a way for the staff at Euston to have let a 19yo girl on her own to board the train and for the situation to have been settled while on board?

Not asking for a freebie here or anything, but the whole situation seemed to be a little bit harsh, uncompromising and unaccomodating, bearing in mind that the e-documents were on a device that was stolen and the traveller was in direct contact while at the gate line with family who could have paid the fare over the phone.

Is the system really that strict?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers guys!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Evening all.

I have a question for the experts on here.

A friend of mine has had her belongings stolen, including all her cash and the record of her e-ticket. Although we had, at our end, access to the e-ticket and all the reference numbers.

Gate line staff at Euston refused permission to travel and all we got from Virgin Facebook messaging was a bit of a mish mash but told two things;

1) “need a valid ticket to travel, end of” followed by;

2) “need to buy a ticket from a staffed station to ensure permission to travel”

So... we’re in Blackburn and the nearest staffed station might be Preston, but it’s 20 miles away and definitely was not within travel distance to fulfil the requirements specified before departure even if we could.

Regardless of that, Virgin responded well after the departure of the last service.

So, my questions are:

1) Is there a mechanism in the rail ticketing system to allow a traveller who has lost their travel details and ability to pay, to board a train without documents or a ticket and to pay later?

2) Is there a mechanism in the rail ticketing system to allow a third party to pay for the required travel ticket AFTER the fact and after boarding, via an online system? (Bearing in mind the station staff availability in Lancashire late in the evening, particularly Blackburn).

3) Despite being able to provide ticket and booking details at this end, should the gate line staff have allowed travel and sorted the situation while the traveller was en-route?

This was an honest situation of loss of property and travel information and there was no issue in paying for a ticket to travel by the folks here in Blackburn.

But given the hour, the fact it was the last train to Manchester from Euston and the timescales from loss/theft of property to departure of the last service, surely there has to have been a way for the staff at Euston to have let a 19yo girl on her own to board the train and for the situation to have been settled while on board?

Not asking for a freebie here or anything, but the whole situation seemed to be a little bit harsh, uncompromising and unaccomodating, bearing in mind that the e-documents were on a device that was stolen and the traveller was in direct contact while at the gate line with family who could have paid the fare over the phone.

Is the system really that strict?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers guys!

I agree that the gateline staff's behaviour might be considered poor customer service. However, Euston gateline staff are notorious for being rude, badly trained and for having a very poor understanding and application of the rules.

It would have been perfectly possible for the friend to have been allowed access onto the train and to give her name and address so that an Unpaid Fares Notice could be sent to her (essentially a bill for the ticket), which could be "written off" after the details of the m-tickets are provided. However they chose not to do so.

I am sympathetic with the 'plight' of your friend but ultimately I think it's always important to have backup options especially when you are relying on last trains of the day, and so whilst I would not be blaming her for what happened, I think the gateline staff equally cannot be considered 'at fault' for what has happened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're talking about an e-ticket here? Not an M-ticket?

I don't entirely understand why something couldn't have been done at Euston, e.g. allowing the use of a PC on which to print it out.

 

[boing_uk]

All the details were accessible at this end and the family were on the phone to the girl but the gate line refused permission to travel and solve the matter en route.

She ended up getting booked in to a hotel nearby by the family at a not-so-insignificant cost.

And their Facebook team were next to useless as well, clearly not literate with ticketing situations.

“Unfortunately without a valid ticket for the journey a new one must be purchased before boarding the train in order to travel. - Stephen” followed by;

“If you are stranded at a station with no means to pay for a ticket, an arrangement may be made for somebody else to pay for a ticket for you under the so-called ‘SILK’ arrangement. Payment can only be made in person at a station and only full-price Anytime Single tickets can be purchased. There is an administration fee to use this service. - Stephen”

At 22:30 on a Tuesday night, I can’t think of any station in the North West that would have an open ticket area...

 

[Haywain]

All the details were accessible at this end and the family were on the phone to the girl but the gate line refused permission to travel and solve the matter en route.

She ended up getting booked in to a hotel nearby by the family at a not-so-insignificant cost.

And their Facebook team were next to useless as well, clearly not literate with ticketing situations.

“Unfortunately without a valid ticket for the journey a new one must be purchased before boarding the train in order to travel. - Stephen” followed by;

“If you are stranded at a station with no means to pay for a ticket, an arrangement may be made for somebody else to pay for a ticket for you under the so-called ‘SILK’ arrangement. Payment can only be made in person at a station and only full-price Anytime Single tickets can be purchased. There is an administration fee to use this service. - Stephen”

At 22:30 on a Tuesday night, I can’t think of any station in the North West that would have an open ticket area...

Unfortunately, being in such a situation late in the evening is a problem due to limited staffing but that doesn't alter the fact that the gateline staff were right to refuse permission to board the train without a valid ticket. The Facebook team were also correct in the information that they gave, even if you see it as unhelpful. Payment by phone is not a realistic option as the requirements for a pin number or signature would prevent this (many TIS do not even allow manual entry of a card number). Whilst it is off little help now, the best solution would have been to seek an option where the e-ticket could have been emailed to someone (possibly at the station) to print it out for your friend to present but this would have needed to be done in good time and not left until the train was boarding. Or perhaps sent to the phone that the girl was using?

 

[AlterEgo]

The most sensible thing to have done here, from VTWC's point of view, was to take details for an UFN at the gateline, allow travel, and sort it out later. If the customer had the same problem at many other stations, they would be on the train already before any problem solving could be attempted.

I don't think there was too much doubt that the traveller here was honest (did they provide a crime reference number to the staff btw?).

 

[Clip]

The most sensible thing to have done here, from VTWC's point of view, was to take details for an UFN at the gateline, allow travel, and sort it out later. If the customer had the same problem at many other stations, they would be on the train already before any problem solving could be attempted.

I don't think there was too much doubt that the traveller here was honest (did they provide a crime reference number to the staff btw?).

Do the barrier staff have the ability and are trained in writing out a UFN?

 

[AlterEgo]

Do the barrier staff have the ability and are trained in writing out a UFN?

Call the TM over if they don’t - they’re usually hanging around near the gates too.

 

[Clip]

Call the TM over if they don’t - they’re usually hanging around near the gates too.

I can never tell them apart but shouldn't the TM be getting themselves prepared for the train to depart?

 

[Haywain]

Call the TM over if they don’t - they’re usually hanging around near the gates too.

That makes the assumption that there would have been time to do that, and that the traveller/passenger/OP's friend was willing to accept a UFN. If they had argued that they already had a ticket and were not prepared to pay again there would be no reason to issue a UFN.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That makes the assumption that there would have been time to do that, and that the traveller/passenger/OP's friend was willing to accept a UFN. If they had argued that they already had a ticket and were not prepared to pay again there would be no reason to issue a UFN.

It is quite possible that someone who was freaking out due to being in a big city without any of their possessions or money, having already experienced quite possibly a violent mugging or similar, inadvertently failed the classic "attitude test" due to the high level of stress in the situation.

 

[Clip]

It is quite possible that someone who was freaking out due to being in a big city without any of their possessions or money, having already experienced quite possibly a violent mugging or similar, inadvertently failed the classic "attitude test" due to the high level of stress in the situation.

There doesnt have to be an attitude test in every scenario - they've basically just done what they thought was right and told them to purchase a new ticket.

 

[Haywain]

It is quite possible that someone who was freaking out due to being in a big city without any of their possessions or money, having already experienced quite possibly a violent mugging or similar, inadvertently failed the classic "attitude test" due to the high level of stress in the situation.

And it is equally possible that someone very calmly refuses to accept that any fare is due, which is the principle of the UFN. The refusal to accept a UFN being issued and the attitude test are not one and the same thing. And I don't think it is helpful to make assumptions about the situation that caused this ("possibly a violent mugging") without such information being divulged by the OP.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it is equally possible that someone very calmly refuses to accept that any fare is due, which is the principle of the UFN. The refusal to accept a UFN being issued and the attitude test are not one and the same thing. And I don't think it is helpful to make assumptions about the situation that caused this ("possibly a violent mugging") without such information being divulged by the OP.

Also possible, though isn't that more for when travel has already occurred? A fare *was* due, though, as no ticket was physically held.

(This doesn't mean I agree with her being left in the lurch, I should note)

 

[[.n]]

The SILK scheme is what I was going to mention, but I can see that it was already suggested, and by and large I think it is a reasonable solution most of the time.

The other reasonably obvious solution I can think of would have been to buy a new ticket online and collect it as TOD, set to any/no card collection.

 

[boing_uk]

The incident apparently happened en route to the station. I’m not too sure of the full details but the girl was in contact both with her family while at the gate line, nor was purchasing another ticket an issue. She’s not the kind of person to have a hissy either or be rude - however I wasn’t at Euston so can’t say.

The main issue was that it was the last train north and a 19yo was left to her own devices in central London with no cash and no help from Virgin to get her on the train and confirm the necessary details after the fact.

The tickets were bought through train line but as anyone knows, getting in to ones emails on a strange phone isn’t a quick affair, especially when also trying to explain to the gate staff the situation. She arrived at Euston 20 mins prior to departure.

That doesn’t leave a lot of time to explain to gate line, contact family, find the booking details, email them back to someone, print it out and then get on the train.

 

[boing_uk]

Yes but you’re talking about someone who isn’t as knowledgeable about such things as the folks on this forum.

She’s a young lass who has just had all her gear pilfered, not a rail ticketing expert with a cool head.

The whole thing just seems unnecessarily officious, esp given the location, destination and time of night and who was clearly not trying to pull a fast one to get out of paying .

 

[Western Sunset]

With some many travellers having e-tickets on their devices, if it does get lost / stolen, surely there is a mechanism that VT (or any TOC) can access to see if said traveller actually bought the ticket.

Maybe I misunderstand this particular case, but from what I've read the young lady had bought a ticket - she was just unable to present it. Yet friends / family had all her details. Why couldn't VT staff accept that? And if not, maybe they should put procedures in place which enable them to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can never tell them apart but shouldn't the TM be getting themselves prepared for the train to depart?

There’s not that much for them to do, they are usually found near the gates, often on the platform. Not hard to get hold of one.

 

[causton]

With some many travellers having e-tickets on their devices, if it does get lost / stolen, surely there is a mechanism that VT (or any TOC) can access to see if said traveller actually bought the ticket.

Maybe I misunderstand this particular case, but from what I've read the young lady had bought a ticket - she was just unable to present it. Yet friends / family had all her details. Why couldn't VT staff accept that? And if not, maybe they should put procedures in place which enable them to do so.

Unfortunately I haven't heard of anything and I don't know if VT would have one either.

And as most Trainline sites put the customer details as:
Name: INCOMPLETE CUSTOMER
Address: INCOMPLETE

These days we can't even look up ToD reference numbers, let alone people's e-tickets or m-tickets...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other reasonably obvious solution I can think of would have been to buy a new ticket online and collect it as TOD, set to any/no card collection.

Pay PayPal if you want to be sure of this (as they won't tell the merchant the card number so it can't be anything other than any card) - that is a really good idea and would be cheaper than SILK because it could even be an Advance if there were any.

The only issue with any card is that you'd have to find someone willing to allow their card to be used. I would, but that's because I understand the implications. Someone else might not.

Perhaps SILK should be replaced or supplemented by an online system of some kind that allowed collection without a card? If it charged £10 and only allowed Anytimes (perhaps endorsed as non-refundable) that would give some level of fraud control because it would be a bit pricey to bother.

 

[njr001]

I too have found the gateline staff at Euston officious.

This story certainly does not hold VT in a good light, a young person in a strange city at night having been robbed should have been offered more assistance. Whenever i've purchased an eticket I've always carried a PDF on my phone as well as a print out, I assume from post 4 that she still had her mobile (easy to be wise after the event)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I too have found the gateline staff at Euston officious.

This story certainly does not hold VT in a good light, a young person in a strange city at night having been robbed should have been offered more assistance. Whenever i've purchased an eticket I've always carried a PDF on my phone as well as a print out, I assume from post 4 that she still had her mobile (easy to be wise after the event)

If she had her phone, the PDF could have been sent by email to it from home? I'm guessing she didn't. OP, did she?

 

[30907]

If she had her phone, the PDF could have been sent by email to it from home? I'm guessing she didn't. OP, did she?

From an earlier post it seems she was using a different phone and perhaps (understandably in the circumstances) couldn't or didn't think to access her VT account.

 

[moliones]

Some banks allow for an emergency cash (from an ATM) function. For example, in the Natwest app, you can generate a one-time code that can be entered into a RBS-group ATM, with no card, and it will dispense the requested amount of cash. Other banks may have similar things, or perhaps be able to help by ringing them. This code can be given (say, over the phone) to someone else, and I think there is even an option in the Natwest app to text it to someone.

In this situation the cash could be used to buy a new ticket, if immediate travel is required, of course it's not just useful railway matters.

 

[Western Sunset]

From what I've read here on the matter (and granted it's only from a third parties viewpoint), I feel the gateline staff at Euston should be ashamed of themselves in the way they handled things.

Even if it wasn't a young lady stranded miles from home late at night, who has just had her belongings stolen, their apparently indifferent attitude is a disgrace.

 

[Clip]

From what I've read here on the matter (and granted it's only from a third parties viewpoint), I feel the gateline staff at Euston should be ashamed of themselves in the way they handled things.

Even if it wasn't a young lady stranded miles from home late at night, who has just had her belongings stolen, their apparently indifferent attitude is a disgrace.

Ok so as a question to you and others - How do you determine who is in need and who isnt - I mean if they have no ID on them you cant really check so you just punt out UFN's whenever anyone tells you a similar story and no way to chase them up as its false details and we get loads of threads in here about people wrongfully getting them due to as above?

 

[221129]

A couple of questions.

Had the incident been reported to the police and was a crime reference number offered to the staff?

Did the passenger have any form of ID?

If the answer to both of these was no then I don't blame the staff for refusing travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did the passenger have any form of ID?

I don't know about you, but I carry all my ID (other than my passport which only goes with me when I travel abroad) in my wallet. So I very much doubt that someone who had been mugged or pickpocketed would have any ID.

 

[boing_uk]

To reply, she was borrowing a friends phone I believe. Or someone else’s. Not sure on that one.

A lot of the “alternatives” being suggested here are all very well after the fact, but none of them overly helpful with little under 20-odd minutes from getting in to the station and getting on the train.

I’m only a third party to the whole story myself and was only involved with the northern end of the conversation while the family were scrabbling around for options.

SILK as already stated; not an option. No staffed stations nearby the family.

Printing out tickets; what’s the point in having e-tickets then? The whole point of e-anything is not having to bother with a physical copy. If the rail companies are going to offer e-ticketing, then it’s been implemented really poorly if there’s no way of checking on the ground from a reference number held elsewhere.

Emergency cash; yup, all very well but finding someone with a bank that does it is key. Only person in a group of 15 people that had a NatWest card was my other half and he wasn’t even there! And anyway, there wouldn’t have been any time to send the cash over from one account to another, then call NatWest to arrange a code, get to a NatWest machine and get it withdrawn and ticket purchased before departure.

No crime reference number at the time - her priority was trying to get on a train home first. And have you ever called 101? Frighteningly long waits to answer a call in the first place.

Look, this wasn’t someone trying to get a freebie. And yes I know fakers must try this sort of thing all the time... but this was a VTWC service to Manchester and she was going... to Manchester.

It’s not like she was hopping off at the next stop two minutes away and hiding from the guard to avoid payment.

Shoddy operation, shoddy staff.