Losing tickets

[Zoe]

Has anyone ever bought a ticket and then been unable to find it when they get on the train? I had this once but luckily for me it wasn't a long journey so I just bought a new ticket from the guard. These days with penalty fare areas and prosecution threats I'm not sure I would have been so lucky.

 

[yorkie]

I lost a reservation slip before, and I approached the guard and he said not to worry. This was on East Coast. The train was relatively lightly loaded so seats were not a problem.

I forgot to bring tickets back from Berwick-Yorkshire for the return journey after a Scottish Rover meet in Summer 2008. I had to go back to York to collect them while the others did one final bash of the Aberdeen line. I don't think we were checked in the end so I needn't have bothered, but I couldn't risk that!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Only once - and it was a major problem! About 5 years ago I was doing a 7 day rover with some friends, and part of the trip was a sleeper journey back from Penzance to London. Now, it came to light during the holiday that I had left all the sleeper reservation coupons, vouchers, tickets etc etc etc at home. After a few phone calls we were assured it would all be ok, all we had to was present ourselves at Penzance, give our reference code ( which I still had) and they would cross reference with the list they carry of who is booked and hey presto.

Very unfortunately there had been a ferocious thunder storm which had resulted in a power cut in Penzance. Whilst the signals etc were working - the station was in darkness, and none of the computers were working. Result - no list.

So we had to sit on the cushions until Plymouth when the stewards decided they would probably have enough bunks to let us have one, when we finally got to sort ourselves out.

Now that is a personal tale - but at work I hear the same tale over and over again every single day "I've lost my ticket but I've got the receipt". Some are genuine, some not, you can never tell - so they all get the same treatment. Buy a new ticket, but if you happen to find it let me know. They will always winge, but my stock answer is "Imagine today you did some shopping, then left one of the bags containing (insert suitable item) on the train on the way home and it was never found. Would you go back to the shop the next day with the receipt and just expect them to hand over another (insert item) to you free of charge? No. Well this is exactly the same - you loose something so you need to buy another one."

 

[MichaelAMW]

"Imagine today you did some shopping, then left one of the bags containing (insert suitable item) on the train on the way home and it was never found. Would you go back to the shop the next day with the receipt and just expect them to hand over another (insert item) to you free of charge? No. Well this is exactly the same - you lose something so you need to buy another one."

It's not the same thing. In the shop example you're expecting to receive a further tin of beans from them, which represents a real loss to them because they can't sell it to someone else. In the case of a lost ticket you are unable to prove that you have paid. In the first case you are asking for free beans; in the second case you are not asking for a free journey, because you've already paid, albeit that you don't have the proof.

 

[Ticket Man]

It's not the same thing. In the shop example you're expecting to receive a further tin of beans from them, which represents a real loss to them because they can't sell it to someone else. In the case of a lost ticket you are unable to prove that you have paid. In the first case you are asking for free beans; in the second case you are not asking for a free journey, because you've already paid, albeit that you don't have the proof.

a better example could be you brought a new passport to go on holiday and between buying it and going on holiday you lost it. Would you really think you could turn up at the airport and they would let you travel because you have paid for it?

and can you imagine what it would be like if tocs did start accepting lost tickets

"i paid for it but i lost the ticket, i have the receipt though" meanwhile his friend is getting ready to board with the "lost" ticket.

From experience, you give people an opportunity and they will usually take it. Whilst im not saying that everyone would do this, I think it would be more commonplace than people might think.

Being the holder of a ticket isn't just proof of purchase, it is evidence that you have adhered to all the relevant conditions and byelaws that you are required to comply with.

 

[EM2]

My brother managed to lose a ticket between buying it at the machine at Victoria, and walking to platform 7, a distance of about eighty yards...

 

[Flamingo]

As ever, the CoC cover this:

24. Lost, stolen or mislaid tickets
A ticket is your evidence of your right to make a rail journey and it is your responsibility to keep it safe. If you lose or mislay a ticket or a Smartcard or it is stolen, it will not be replaced nor will any of the cost be refunded. However, Train Companies will replace certain Season Tickets in the circumstances set out in Condition 34.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

 

[Wolvercoter]

I once dropped part of my YP railcard on the concourse at Didcot Parkway. I went to Reading and back and, luckily, my ticket wasn't checked. I didn't notice it was missing until I found it on my way back, still lying on the floor.

More recently, I couldn't find my ticket about my person at the gateline at Swindon. The staff member thought I was trying to pull a fast one but luckily I found it. It made me worry that if I genuinely lost my ticket, I would be treated like a criminal. I suppose the lesson is to very careful where you keep your ticket.

 

[bse35]

I lost my rover ticket when on the north norfolk railway, so had to shell out another £7 for another one

 

[RJ]

It's not the same thing. In the shop example you're expecting to receive a further tin of beans from them, which represents a real loss to them because they can't sell it to someone else. In the case of a lost ticket you are unable to prove that you have paid. In the first case you are asking for free beans; in the second case you are not asking for a free journey, because you've already paid, albeit that you don't have the proof.

What's to stop somebody giving their ticket to somebody else then claiming that they lost it? Or somebody else finding and using the ticket that was genuinely lost then not paying for their own fare? Should the railway routinely give out free tickets?

 

[Oswyntail]

....
From experience, you give people an opportunity and they will usually take it. Whilst im not saying that everyone would do this, I think it would be more commonplace than people might think.

This sentiment, while possibly accurate, and frequently expressed here, is one of the saddest I have ever read. Do we really have to run society on the basis that everyone is a potential crook?

....Being the holder of a ticket isn't just proof of purchase, it is evidence that you have adhered to all the relevant conditions and byelaws that you are required to comply with.

No it isn't - a holder of a stolen ticket hasn't. i would even go so far as to suggest that it is less likely that a criminal would hold the receipt than a ticket.

 

[Ticket Man]

More recently, I couldn't find my ticket about my person at the gateline at Swindon. The staff member thought I was trying to pull a fast one but luckily I found it. It made me worry that if I genuinely lost my ticket, I would be treated like a criminal. I suppose the lesson is to very careful where you keep your ticket.

Think that's a bit of an over reaction, I get people with lost tickets everyday and whether they are genuine or not, I certainly don't treat people like criminals.
A simple explanation of the rules is usually suffice and it is not for me to judge if they are genuine or "trying it on" so to speak.

I'm revenue protection not a jury service

 

[penaltyfines]

I think the current rules of 'lost ticket = buy a new one', whilst against the spirit of the concept of buying a ticket (which is proof of the 'license' to travel) that has no actual value, is the only way that the current system permits.

Now... taking the Oyster way forward where loss/theft of tickets can be stopped and re-issued... that would be a little 21st century!

 

[radamfi]

I'm OK about having to buy a new ticket if I lose the ticket but I'm very concerned about getting a criminal record if I lose it. It is probably a good idea to buy the ticket by card or online so that you have some proof of purchase if the case went to court. I wouldn't be wanting to get off buying a new ticket but I would want to avoid the criminal record.

 

[b0b]

I'm OK about having to buy a new ticket if I lose the ticket but I'm very concerned about getting a criminal record if I lose it.

Unfortunately, if you are very concerned, there's no way to be certain that you will not get a criminal record if you cannot display a valid ticket on demand, even if unintentionally. Maybe another form of travel is for you.

 

[radamfi]

Unfortunately, if you are very concerned, there's no way to be certain that you will not get a criminal record if you cannot display a valid ticket on demand, even if unintentionally. Maybe another form of travel is for you.

Surely there will only be a criminal conviction if the court can prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that you deliberately avoided the fare. If you have evidence of purchase and it is your first offence then clearly you didn't deliberately avoid the fare and surely you won't be convicted.

 

[Ticket Man]

as mentioned before in this thread, its an open and shut case. The NRCOC clearly states that TOC's are not responsible for lost tickets and a new one will have to be purchased.

Whilst everyone is entitled to appeal PF's and UPFN's, if the appeal gets knocked back based on the above conditions then who would be foolish enough to take that matter to court?

Ive only been and rpi for a few years but ive never heard of anyone going to court over a lost ticket and hence fourth have never seen anyone receive a criminal record because of said situation.

 

[radamfi]

as mentioned before in this thread, its an open and shut case. The NRCOC clearly states that TOC's are not responsible for lost tickets and a new one will have to be purchased.

Whilst everyone is entitled to appeal PF's and UPFN's, if the appeal gets knocked back based on the above conditions then who would be foolish enough to take that matter to court?

What about those lists of names on posters that you see when TOCs 'name and shame' fare evaders? Don't they have criminal records?

I wouldn't lose any sleep over a PF or UPFN and I wouldn't appeal if I ever had one, if it was because of a lost ticket and not an argument about ticket validity. But being prosecuted is different.

 

[b0b]

Surely there will only be a criminal conviction if the court can prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that you deliberately avoided the fare. If you have evidence of purchase and it is your first offence then clearly you didn't deliberately avoid the fare and surely you won't be convicted.

Nope! ... its a statutory offence if you cannot show a valid ticket to an authorised person on demand.

Amazing huh?

However, if they genuinely believes you're not a deliberate fare evader, they do not usually prosecute.

 

[Ticket Man]

What about those lists of names on posters that you see when TOCs 'name and shame' fare evaders? Don't they have criminal records?

Yes they do but that is for proper fare evasion such as use of fraudulent tickets or if you already have outstanding PF's etc, not loss of ticket.

Surely there will only be a criminal conviction if the court can prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that you deliberately avoided the fare. If you have evidence of purchase and it is your first offence then clearly you didn't deliberately avoid the fare and surely you won't be convicted.

the first part of this paragraph is right, the court would need evidence that you intentionally avoided the fare. the bold bit would never happen as you would not be summoned to court over a lost ticket.

This sentiment, while possibly accurate, and frequently expressed here, is one of the saddest I have ever read. Do we really have to run society on the basis that everyone is a potential crook?

thats a very negative way of looking at revenue protection. I don't see everyone as a potential "crook". I see everyone as a customer, if I find a customer with a ticket issue, then they are still a customer unless I can prove otherwise.

No it isn't - a holder of a stolen ticket hasn't. i would even go so far as to suggest that it is less likely that a criminal would hold the receipt than a ticket.

If you check my wording you will see that i said it is evidence, not proof!

 

[jon0844]

Do we really have to run society on the basis that everyone is a potential crook?

Honest opinion? Yes.

And it's very sad that I think that to be the case, and I hope to God we can change society so it won't be the case for the next generation.

 

[RJ]

Or, teach the future generations not to lose important things. If you lose a £50 ticket and get a free replacement and somebody then finds and uses that ticket instead of buying their own, that's £50 the railway has lost. Is it fair that a business should lose money because of somebody not taking responsibility for something they've been given?

 

[DavidSmith]

It's not the same thing. In the shop example you're expecting to receive a further tin of beans from them, which represents a real loss to them because they can't sell it to someone else. In the case of a lost ticket you are unable to prove that you have paid. In the first case you are asking for free beans; in the second case you are not asking for a free journey, because you've already paid, albeit that you don't have the proof.

Actually it is the same thing. A ticket has a face value that when issued must be paid for by the issuing office to other TOCs under the accountancy procedures of RSP.
In both examples you are expecting to receive an item that has cost the company money to 'buy'.That IS the same thing.
In the case of a ticket on a branch line with only one TOC then that money would end up going back to the train company. But in manycases that would not be so.

An example of something that has little material value, but a higher face value is money. By your logic if you lost a £20 note you took out of the ATM it would not represent a loss to the bank for them to give you another, after all, its just a bit of paper with a strip of metal in it, right?

In both cases you would be mistaken, they both represent a real loss.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Actually it is the same thing. A ticket has a face value that when issued must be paid for by the issuing office to other TOCs under the accountancy procedures of RSP.
In both examples you are expecting to receive an item that has cost the company money to 'buy'.That IS the same thing.
In the case of a ticket on a branch line with only one TOC then that money would end up going back to the train company. But in manycases that would not be so.

An example of something that has little material value, but a higher face value is money. By your logic if you lost a £20 note you took out of the ATM it would not represent a loss to the bank for them to give you another, after all, its just a bit of paper with a strip of metal in it, right?

In both cases you would be mistaken, they both represent a real loss.

Whilst your remarks about the RSP are interesting you have somewhat missed my point. I wasn't attempting to make any comment about what I imagine are the arcane rules governing how money is shifted around the railway. I was pointing out that in one case he wanted a tin of beans he *hadn't* paid for and in the other that he wanted a journey he *had* paid for. I was deliberately not going any further than that. In any case, the RSP arrangements create an artificial additional cost in this case: the extra tin of beans is real; the 'extra' journey doesn't actually exist.

I disagree that your remark about the value of a banknote responds to the specific point I made. However, it is relevant in that the lost ticket could be found and used by someone else, at which point the extra journey does now exist and there is a real cost associated with it. All the same, I was merely pointing out that asking for another ticket when you've lost one doesn't seek to provide you with any material advantage and a 'journey', once purchased, doesn't exist until you actually travel, unlike the tin of beans that exists throughout.

 

[Ticket Man]

I was merely pointing out that asking for another ticket when you've lost one doesn't seek to provide you with any material advantage and a 'journey', once purchased, doesn't exist until you actually travel, unlike the tin of beans that exists throughout.

then you could say that about any service based product, you would never be seeking any service for material gain and hence I don't quite understand why you raised this point.

You do stand to save though by getting a special 2 for 1 on "lost" tickets so you and your friend (not you personally ) can get to where your going half price

 

[Flamingo]

I had somebody last week who had "lost" their ticket and wallet. I was not inclined to believe them as:
1. We had gone off an unbarriered ticket
2. The first time I asked them for a ticket they had developed a sudden urge to go to the toilet (I went back to find them 10 minutes later).
3. When told that I could issue them with a UPFN for them to pay within 10 days, but that would be for the full open, not Super-off peak, (nearly four times the price) they magically "found" a debit card.

I did tell them if they found their ticket before the end of the journey, they could have a full refund, but they didn't make much effort to look for it.

I'm afraid that chancers like that make it harder on the genuine cases