LOROL 508/3's

[507 001]

Hi Guys,
Apparently the ex silverlink/london overground 508/3's are due to move from eastleigh to warrington Arpley within the next few days (maybe tomorrow) for future use with Merseyrail.
Apparently the Merseyrail barrier cars are already at eastleigh.
They are only going as far as Arpley atm because Birkenhead north is in no position to accept them with the amount of units out for repair.
Cheers
Rob

P.S. its about time :roll:

 

[ukrob]

Tomorrow:

508302/303

5X70 13+30 Eastleigh Yd - Wembley Yd
Winchester 13/41
Worting Jn 13/58
Basingstoke 14/02
Woking 14/36
Staines 15/11
Brentford 15/27
Clapham Jn 15/43
Kensington Olympia 15/53
Wembley Yd 16+24

Warrington the next day.

No idea who the source of the timings is.

They are only going as far as Arpley atm because Birkenhead north is in no position to accept them with the amount of units out for repair.

How is that for irony.

 

[33056]

Tomorrow:

508302/303

5X70 13+30 Eastleigh Yd - Wembley Yd
Winchester 13/41
Worting Jn 13/58
Basingstoke 14/02
Woking 14/36
Staines 15/11
Brentford 15/27
Clapham Jn 15/43
Kensington Olympia 15/53
Wembley Yd 16+24

Doubt this will run (at least via this route), slight problem with a bridge at Feltham hock:

 

[fgwrich]

Tomorrow:

508302/303

5X70 13+30 Eastleigh Yd - Wembley Yd
Winchester 13/41
Worting Jn 13/58
Basingstoke 14/02
Woking 14/36
Staines 15/11
Brentford 15/27
Clapham Jn 15/43
Kensington Olympia 15/53
Wembley Yd 16+24

Warrington the next day.

No idea who the source of the timings is.


How is that for irony.

Shall be interesting to see which way this gets re-routed tommorow...unless it goes up the GWML from basingstoke to Wembley via Acton which seems likely...

As for the units themselves...Mersey rail is taking 508302-303...but as of 301s fate...i have no idea whats happening to that unit...but it hasnt turned a wheel under its own power for a while now...

Oh well...thanks for the timings anyhow...though i already knew they were due to moove today ( wed) thanks to a mate of mine...

 

[507 001]

2 units isnt even enough to cover the ones out due to major problems, i.e. 507 002, out since the collision at kirkdale, the one that burst into flames the other month and I'm sure theres a third one, possibly 139 after the "other" collision at kirkdale.
we should have gained all 15 of the spare ones, not southern who doesnt need them!

 

[Fincra5]

Huh? As part of Southerns new franchise agreement some south london trains are being extended to 10car. These units wont just appear... they are comming from the southcoast local trains out of brighton. These will HAVE to be replaced, hence the 508s and 313s.

 

[fgwrich]

By the way...The Mooves been diverted via Oxford to Bescot...due to the Feltham problem...

 

[507 001]

yes but do the south london trains really need to be extended? (I have to admit I'm no expert on this area)
Once again Merseyrail (just like northern) gets the crappy end of the stick and gets stuck with not enough units and the ones it does have are worn out completely. Whereas the southern TOC's get everything they want. when was the last time southern got new trains? or SWT? and when was the last time Merseyrail or Northern got new trains?
I'll give you another example, when the Liverpool Manchester electrification starts Northern gets somebody elses crap, the 319's, whereas the companies that currently operate the 319's more than likely get brand new ones.

 

[ukrob]

yes but do the south london trains really need to be extended? (I have to admit I'm no expert on this area)
Once again Merseyrail (just like northern) gets the crappy end of the stick and gets stuck with not enough units and the ones it does have are worn out completely. Whereas the southern TOC's get everything they want. when was the last time southern got new trains? or SWT? and when was the last time Merseyrail or Northern got new trains?
I'll give you another example, when the Liverpool Manchester electrification starts Northern gets somebody elses crap, the 319's, whereas the companies that currently operate the 319's more than likely get brand new ones.

And when the Merseyrail units are replaced with new build, Southern wouldn't of had new stock for how many years, and won't be getting any for how many years?

 

[MCR247]

when was the last time southern got new trains? or SWT? and when was the last time Merseyrail or Northern got new trains?

Sorry, but remind me again how old the new Southern/SWT stock was when it was replaced? 40 years old. How old is the oldest merseyrail & northern stock? 31 & 25 years old respectively. So merseyrail should get some soon. I should also point out that the slammers werent very safe, so that probably put them high in the list for replacement. But to a point I do agree with your arguement

 

[507 001]

yes but SWT and Southerns slammers were still going relatively strong, merseyrails units and northerns especially are rundown mechanically (and internally in the case of the 150's) and MPC figures are pretty poor.

Anyway, does anybody know whats happening to 301? is it stripped? or in working condition? i seem to remember it being the first stored LOROL 508

 

[Swift-Deere]

yes but do the south london trains really need to be extended? (I have to admit I'm no expert on this area)
Once again Merseyrail (just like northern) gets the crappy end of the stick and gets stuck with not enough units and the ones it does have are worn out completely. Whereas the southern TOC's get everything they want. when was the last time southern got new trains? or SWT? and when was the last time Merseyrail or Northern got new trains?
I'll give you another example, when the Liverpool Manchester electrification starts Northern gets somebody elses crap, the 319's, whereas the companies that currently operate the 319's more than likely get brand new ones.

I have too agree with you there to a degree?
How ever i belive merseyrail and northern rail stock to be mecanicly sound and good trains

how ever my issue is that on the Northern operated Liverpool to wigan line is that the 2 car DMU's are far too small/low capacity and that 3 car multiple units or ever 4 car ones are needed
Ultermatly the line should be electrified and new 3 car EMU's added

 

[507 001]

you have to remember that these units were built cheaply by BR in the 70's, they are now 32 years old, and that whole time has been without major overhaul, even the 2004 refurb was only cosmetic, very little was touched below the solebar, they just gave the bogies a lick of paint! put it this way, as i said in an earlier post, the only place 302 and 303 are going to for quite a while is arpley, because Birkenhead north can't accept them for re-commisioning because of the amount of units out for repairs and the like and kirkdale doesnt handle that sort of thing lol.
Merseyrail have been short of units for a while, there are 59 507's and 508's, 3 are withdrawn due to various accidents, and a good few are out for repair. 50 are required for a daily service, which means that at peak times there is around 3 units spare to cover the whole network.
northerns even worse, their shortage of units produces such farces as a single 142 on peak time services. even on a sunday the 18:30 out of Lime street is usually packed to the rafters, I've had to wait for the next train at least 4 times in the last 6 weeks because there is physically no more room.

 

[Pumbaa]

How ever i belive merseyrail and northern rail stock to be mecanicly sound and good trains

Some. But most are well and truly knackered. My 142, for instance, yesterday had to be kicked into life and ended up leaving well and truly late. Thankfully I was only going to Lea Green!

 

[507 001]

exactly the vast majority are totally buggered. most 142's now spend their journeys running on a single power unit, and this is a problem thats started to spread to the 156's. hell, we've even had engines falling off! and do i need to carry on with how the doors dont work properly etc....
150's are battered, inside and out, the engines are as rough as hell, the interiors are minging, hot and generally falling apart, most even have seats missing and vibrating roof panels.
the 156's are the only decent stock we have up here and even them compared to the EMT ones for example are terrible.

 

[Swift-Deere]

you have to remember that these units were built cheaply by BR in the 70's, they are now 32 years old, and that whole time has been without major overhaul, even the 2004 refurb was only cosmetic, very little was touched below the solebar, they just gave the bogies a lick of paint! put it this way, as i said in an earlier post, the only place 302 and 303 are going to for quite a while is arpley, because Birkenhead north can't accept them for re-commisioning because of the amount of units out for repairs and the like and kirkdale doesnt handle that sort of thing lol.
Merseyrail have been short of units for a while, there are 59 507's and 508's, 3 are withdrawn due to various accidents, and a good few are out for repair. 50 are required for a daily service, which means that at peak times there is around 3 units spare to cover the whole network.
northerns even worse, their shortage of units produces such farces as a single 142 on peak time services. even on a sunday the 18:30 out of Lime street is usually packed to the rafters, I've had to wait for the next train at least 4 times in the last 6 weeks because there is physically no more room.

As you sat the Mersey rail fleet is in service need of more stock!!! Also as you say nothern needs a lot more [longer] stock on friday i had to stand up from wigan nw to st helens central because the class 150 was full to the brim and this was only half past two in the afternoon

Some. But most are well and truly knackered. My 142, for instance, yesterday had to be kicked into life and ended up leaving well and truly late. Thankfully I was only going to Lea Green!

Yes the Sprinters are ok but the pacers are getting past it

As i said before Electrification and 3 car and 4 car EMU's are the way forward

 

[fgwrich]

yes but SWT and Southerns slammers were still going relatively strong, merseyrails units and northerns especially are rundown mechanically (and internally in the case of the 150's) and MPC figures are pretty poor.

Anyway, does anybody know whats happening to 301? is it stripped? or in working condition? i seem to remember it being the first stored LOROL 508

As far as im aware...and im very aware on the stuff in Eastleigh...Nowt...Its just sitting there...It is a runner but i pain in the arse one at that...mainly down to the batteries and circuits playing up...

As for the whole Northern Vs Southern Argument...Im not going to wander into this too much...but youve got to admit, it is partly down to TOC Management...Northern has had the franchise for how long now...5 Years...Southern did put a large amount of money in upgrading there services and casulty rate...wheres Northern just seem to have gone for the sit back and do little attitude for the past few years...Afterall...when was the first Reapinted Northern unit...2005...then it took them several versians of one livery to come up with have have finnaly started repainting the whole fleet only in the past year or so...

Sorry but i do get the feeling that Northern does sit there and do bareley anything...then when anything becomes avilible...they complain about its age but still take it...

And look at the FGW Fleet...The newest units they have are the 158 and 165/166s built by BR / Notwork SouthEast...The Newest in the Northern rail Fleet are the also funnily enough the 158s...roughly funnily enough...built around the same time...Plus the Entire 333 Fleet...Funily enough built around the 200-2003 mark, almost before Arriva Trains Northerns Franchise finnished...

FGW Have also been pretty hard hit over the whole Goverment New Units order...but at least they were and i think still are looking into ordering new units themselves...becasue they have the brains to do such...and TPE have done so...Almost ordering before they even got the franchise...Ok Fair does weather this was a franchise requirment or not but its the fact FTPE have done so...and bolsterd up there fleet with the ex SWT 170s...Partly down to the goverment of course but as we all know...How much do the DaFT Really know about running a railway...

Whilst i do feel that people should just sit down and put up with the stock they have...i do feel that theres alot of complaning coming from the north about new trains down in the london and southEastern regions...yet there are quite a few other Tocs around in almost the same situation... When most of your complaints should really be directed at Northern themselves and perhaps they finaly might actually DO something...

Edit...In fact...Thinking about it, Northern do acutally have one over FGW...They have 3 of there Adelantes...Built in er...2000...

And those Ex Lorol 508s...Yes they are 30 years old this year, but Would you rather have a slighly extended fleet with easily compatible and interchangeable units...or mess things up by ordering a new batch of units and running the old, just like LOROL at present...And although i did say new units...i ment as a add on...not a fleet replacement...thats down to Merseytravel / MPTE...

Thats moan over anyway...As i said...Say what you like about what ive written...but as its a age old argument that im not really interested in anymore...have fun...repeating arguments again and again...

 

[90019]

Edit...In fact...Thinking about it, Northern do acutally have one over FGW...They have 3 of there Adelantes...Built in er...2000...

They also have the entire 333 fleet, built in 1999.

 

[fgwrich]

They also have the entire 333 fleet, built in 1999.

Good point...Forgot about those...Oh look...A fairly new Train...Dont have the oldest Stock now Northern Do we...

And while im finnishing the subject...You might complain that the 319s will be partly mooving up north...Yes...But look at what the DFT is planning to replace the HST Sets on FGW with...319s...And 350s from LM for FTPE...

:roll:

 

[90019]

And while im finnishing the subject...You might complain that the 319s will be partly mooving up north

If this is happening aren't they going to be fully refurbished beforehand?

 

[delt1c]

never ceases to amaze me , these "Ageist" posting about units and proposing there replacemennt yet mention 1st gen units and its all Rose tinted specs. Currently sitting on a 315 on a cold and windy morning. Unit is warm and fairly comfy being a Nat East Anglia unit still has origonal seating and layout but the unit continues to provide sterling service nearly 30 years on. , these units are far from life expiered, it is the maintanence that counts not the age. Most travellers dont care the age of the train it is the quality and reliability that counts.
As for the PEP derivatives being built on the cheap, hardly I dont think that so many would still be in frontline service after all this time.

 

[507 001]

Fgwrich, I agree with you about FGW, they are in a similar position to northern, and I also agree wih you that northern doesn't do much to help the situation, but even with the 180's and the 333's the fleet is still considerably older than most of the Southern TOC's and was pretty much ruined by First North western.

And the PEP's, as much as I love them, were built on the cheap, they were built to get as many people in them as possible for as little money as possible. (pack 'em perpendicular springs to mind)
And I didn't know that about the FGW HST's, thats ridiculous!

Anyway, what time are they moving today? anybody know?

 

[90019]

but even with the 180's and the 333's the fleet is still considerably older than most of the Southern TOC's

Yes, but up until not that long ago it was the other way round.

When Northern get new stock and the Southern TOCs are still using older stuff, will you complain about Northern having all the new stock then?

 

[Oswyntail]

I don't think the problem is the age of the stock. After all, the oldest mainline stock in regular use is still arguably the best in the country. But there is a problem about the perceived attitude of the commissioning authorities. The saga of the extra coach for the 185s is a case in point - a proven need and a solid business case but DfT haggled over every last rivet so the opportunity was lost. And i realise that, after Hidden, the entire southern region Mk1 stock had to be replaced (despite being otherwise fit for purpose). But for franchises outside the London catchment area we see improvements gained by shuffling the odd two/three-car unit around. NSE franchises seem to get total fleet replacement at the drop of a hat. And, someone please answer me, why are the 319s thought unfit for Thameslink but fit for Lancashire?

 

[Fudgefrog]

People do amaze me.

Look at TPE as an example. They're stock (158s) wasn't even that old compared to a lot of other units when the entire fleet was replaced with purpose built, unique 185s. Since then they have received extra stock, 170s, which are still little older than a decade in age.

A quick Google confirms that the vast majority of Northern's stock were built post-1982, compared with Southern and South West Train's 455s which were built from around that time onwards.

Until not too long ago Southern, SWT and SouthEastern had some of the oldest, most dangerous stock on the entire British network - Northern's stock certainly seemed better and younger in comparison - and did need replacing. The southern regions also have some of the heaviest passenger numbers, so it does make sense for an increase in stock to take place there.

If we also compare a lot of the other stock, Southern are now having to take on 442s (built during the same era as Northern's 142s, 144s, 155s, 156s and 158s) to replace younger stock. One of Northern's problems is that it's increased faster than anticipated - an even bigger problem for TPE - and so the government's plans didn't work for it.

On the other hand people don't genuinely believe Southern paid for their units do you? The government decide to buy them, Southern order them and a ROSCO buys them to lend to the TOC - all decisions though are made by the DaFT.


Other examples for non-London upgrades include London Midland - who have received a vast order of 350s - and CrossCountry - who seems to operate in every part of the country except London. Granted not everyone likes the 220/221s but you've got to admit they serve a lot of people. On the IC lines Virgin have completely new - well as new as NSR anyway - stock, EMT use 222s on the majority of their IC services and FGW have refurbished the vast majority of its stock!

I therefore don't understand this whole 'London doesn't need more stock - just look at the electrostars and desiros' idea, especially when the likes of Northern and Merseyrail are getting additional/ new stock in the coming years!

 

[WillPS]

Fudgefrog, I think you've missed the point. Nobody was complaining that the InterCity lines are ill-serve; they're fine (in the present tense at least). Also, nobody was doubting the need for stock renewal in the last decade with the old Mk.1 stuff; of course, it had to go. The problem is, right now it seems that bugger all money is being spent on renewing trains which are well and truly life expired, ala Pacers. Right now, these are undoubtably the worst trains safety-wise there is on the network. This is predominantly a northern issue, although First Great Western also have a rough deal.

On top of that, capacity is a massive issue - the four main InterCity operators seem to be doing fine, but outside of London the CrossCountry and other such routes are starved.

Looking at each TOC:

• First TransPennine Express have a modern but ill-sized fleet, and run several routes which they are ill-equipped for.
• Northern do a very good job with what they have, but their fleet is ageing and before too long will need almost completely renewing.
• East Midlands Trains have been dealt a bad hand, simply not having enough units to cope with demand, particularly on the Norwich-Liverpool route. This has had knock on effects on their tertiary services, particularly Derby-Crewe. A lot of the Sprinters they've inherited are need in a complete overhaul, most notably the 153s.
• CrossCountry just about manage on the Turbostar side, but their Voyagers are full-and-standing far too often, especially considering the massive length of their routes.

This is just the TOCs I use most often.

 

[barrowboy]

508302 is sitting hidden between freight at Warrington Arpley.
On it's direction board it says Liverpool Lime Street.
It's been there for at least two weeks from today. Unmoved.
05/12/09

 

[ukrob]

They (it is coupled to 508303) arrived on the 22nd, just less than two weeks ago. Are you sure it doesn't say 'Liverpool Street' as 303 does?