Lord Adonis Signals Change

[merlodlliw]

See this from the Telegraph 16th Jan- Adonis makes his mark:

Trains that are five minutes late should not be classed as on time, says Lord Adonis

Train regulations which allow commuter services which arrive up to five minutes late to be classed as on time should be scrapped for tougher targets, Lord Adonis, the Transport Secretary, has said.


By David Millward, Transport Editor
Published: 8:00AM GMT 16 Jan 2010

Ministers are also ready to change the rule governing longer distance services which are regarded as punctual if they reach their destination within 10 minutes of the expected arrival time.

The five and 10 minute rules have been in place on Britain's railways since 1997.


But with more than 90 per cent of trains now meeting these targets, the pressure is on the Government to demand higher standards of punctuality.

Lord Adonis signalled a change in policy when he admitted that the targets needed revising in the Lords this week.

Speaking of the current five and ten minute rules, he said: "I do not think that most passengers regard that as absolutely punctual and we might have a more exacting target in the future."

The punctuality targets are not only used to measure performance but are taken into account in operators' "passenger charters".

These give commuters the right to a discount on season tickets if their train operator's punctuality has been poor over a sustained period.

Within the industry there is a belief that timetables have been padded to make these targets achievable.

"They do build a certain amount of resilience into the system, but also mean the figures look nice," one railway insider said.

One option would be to shave two minutes off the targets, meaning that a commuter train would have to reach its destination within three minutes of schedule and a long distance service would face an eight minute target.

This would still allow train operators a modest amount of flexibility but be far less generous than before.

The move was welcomed by Anthony Smith , chief executive of the consumer watchdog, Passenger Focus.

"Passengers would welcome a move to make on time mean just that, not within the five to ten minute leeway which is currently in place. Punctuality and reliability have been improving and it is important to build on this.

"Punctual trains are a top priority for passengers and the industry has to keep focus on ensuring that trains run on time. Passengers must be able to trust the scheduled timetable.” hahaha!

From George Jones, SCRUA to members

 

[Minstral25]

Good move by Lord Adonis but I think a calculation is needed for mid-journey times. Currently there is a big fiddle by the operators putting masses of contingency time just before the last stop.

Trains I catch are regularly late at my station normally 5-10 minutes sometimes more but miraculously at the end of the journey (often over an hour away) they are on time.

My local operator is often shown as 90% plus on time but definitely do not achieve near that at my station.

Lies, damn lies and statistics

 

[northwichcat]

Good move by Lord Adonis but I think a calculation is needed for mid-journey times. Currently there is a big fiddle by the operators putting masses of contingency time just before the last stop.

Yes I agree. Also when the train isn't delayed it can be made to sit outside the terminus station for 5 minutes because the platform isn't available until another service has departed.

 

[Old Timer]

So many sudden realisations from this Government. I wonder why ?

 

[Pumbaa]

So many sudden realisations from this Government. I wonder why ?

Actually, Adonis was talking about this during the summer on his ALR round the UK.

 

[Old Timer]

Actually, Adonis was talking about this during the summer on his ALR round the UK.

After 12 years we suddenly have a Damascean change taking place from the early part of 2009 in respect of the Railways.

Amazing how so much is tending towards the Conservative Policies.

 

[jon0844]

I hope it's true that there are rumours of the Tories poaching Lord Adonis if they take power. I wonder if he's heard this rumour and is already preparing himself for the defection?

I've noticed in the latest timetable that many of my trains are now one minute slower in the timetable for me to get to or from King's Cross. It has been the same time since around 2003, so I wonder why there's the change if not to ensure more trains 'run to time'.

With up to 9 minutes to get from Finsbury Park to King's Cross on FCC and up to 45 minutes on East Coast from Stevenage, it certainly isn't good for passengers wanting to go to Finsbury Park or Stevenage who can be late - yet that service was on time.

It's a particular problem for Stevenage as there's a relatively tight connection (10-15 minutes) for me to get off an EC/NXEC/GNER train at Stevenage and then take a FCC train to Hatfield. Miss that connection at night and it's an hour for the next train. Obviously, FCC doesn't hold the train! Yet, that late EC train won't be classed as late because at night it can EASILY make up the time.

 

[Aictos]

You also have to think about pathing as well, there's a few services which arrive at Hertford and spend a good 10 minutes just sitting there due to the pathing restrictions at Stevenage ie not enough platforms for the amount of services due though much like Peterborough suffers the same.

I can think of the 0907, 1609, 2110 and 2207 although the 2110 is the worse one as it sits there for 11 minutes hence the odd complaint about why it's sitting there for so long only for the basic reply of it's keeping to time.

 

[jon0844]

I understand it when there are pathing issues, just as many trains ran late on the main line because of the bottleneck beyond WGC.

The new 2009 timetable fixed most of this, and greatly improved reliability and capacity. However, in December, they've now added that extra minute (so xx:06 and xx:36 trains get to Hatfield at xx:28 and xx:58 respectively) for reasons unknown.

I can't speak for the Hertford Loop and you certainly know better than anyone!

 

[Old Timer]

I hope it's true that there are rumours of the Tories poaching Lord Adonis if they take power. I wonder if he's heard this rumour and is already preparing himself for the defection?.

He does carry a degree of Labour "baggage" with him, not least from his education days plus as a Lord he cannot come to the House of Commons and is thus not truly accountable to MPs in the normal manner.

Also any transition to the Conservative Party would be his THIRD change of Political allegiance illustrating either a lack of Political belief or a leaving us to consider other less altruistic motivations.

 

[Pumbaa]

Indeed - Adonis strikes me as a man who wants to serve the country. He's certainly thrown himself in at the deep end without armbands! I'd be only too happy to see him switch political allegiance (again) and remain as SfT with a new Govt. It's surprising as well the numbers of ordinary punters who know about Adonis, his ALR and his number of comments that he's made. At least the furious tabloid assault he made in the summer paid off I suppose!

 

[Old Timer]

.... his ALR and his number of comments that he's made. At least the furious tabloid assault he made in the summer paid off I suppose!

Wouldn't it have been better of he had travelled incognito to see what REALLY happens, not having senior manager's sat in Control monitoring his every train and directing connections to be held in circumstances when they would never, and rolling stock specially cleaned and provisioned.

Any organisation can and will pass any announced inspection.

It is the unannounced inspections that matter. In that he manifestly failed and thus only gained publicity not a real vision of the everyday.

 

[Pumbaa]

Wouldn't it have been better of he had travelled incognito to see what REALLY happens, not having senior manager's sat in Control monitoring his every train and directing connections to be held in circumstances when they would never, and rolling stock specially cleaned and provisioned.

Any organisation can and will pass any announced inspection.

It is the unannounced inspections that matter. In that he manifestly failed and thus only gained publicity not a real vision of the everyday.

That much is true. However I travelled with a certain esteemed member of railways in UK, and both himself and Adonis were substantially delayed on arrival to their destination, without sausages at one point!

 

[Old Timer]

Good at that stage then, but probably weighed off as "exceptional" in the overall picture.

 

[O L Leigh]

Good move by Lord Adonis but I think a calculation is needed for mid-journey times. Currently there is a big fiddle by the operators putting masses of contingency time just before the last stop.

There are already such requirements. The number of times we get "please explains" for time lost between mid-journey timing points is unbelieveable.

Mind you a lot of the delay we suffer, particularly in the peaks, is down to the great British travelling public. Why, oh why do they insist on using just the one set of doors when there are 16 to choose from on an 8 car train...? If the "live cargo" wants more punctual trains then they have to understand that they also have a part to play in meeting this expectation.

Tighter rules on punctuality are a good thing, but at what point will the rail industry start to be penalised for the tardiness of it's customers? We need a certain amount of leaway to ensure a realistic measure is taken. Perhaps what is needed is a sort of sliding scale that ensures on-time running outside the peaks but allows a certain flexibility during the peaks.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

Why, oh why do they insist on using just the one set of doors when there are 16 to choose from on an 8 car train...?

I don't know about in your area but in the North, with the exception of Merseyrail where it's on the station LED displays, we don't know how many carriages the next train will actually have until it arrives.

You might, for instance on a TPE service being expecting 2x170s and if you wait where you'd expect the rear door to be when the train stops and find that a single 170 turns up and then you can't board it because by the time you reach a door on it you find it's overcrowded.

And in more extreme cases a single 185 has been used instead of a double 185, a 2 car Sprinter has been used instead of a 180 and a 144 instead of 2x158s.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know about your routes, but a lot of people won't stand further down at Hatfield because there's no screen or speaker between the 4 car and 8 car stops. So, if you walk down then you have no way of knowing what's happening to your service. Is it delayed? Is it cancelled? Is it short formed?

Suffice to say, people will generally wait and walk down when they see the train approach - but most won't make it far enough down.

Some people do stand further down and probably enjoy a seat and no hassle getting on or off - but they are the minority.

A TOC might actually want to consider this when they try to find ways of saving money by holding back on screens/speakers to inform passengers.

 

[SAC_Commuter]

Absolutely. Another couple of problems with the ever unreliable FCC are that although they tell you it is 8 coaches, sometimes only 4 turn up so people become nervous of standing too far away from where the end of 4 coaches will be. Additionally, particularly at St Albans, there are frequent last minute (probably should be second) changes of platform (usually peak hours) and so some people stand near the stairs.

 

[142094]

You also get the people who don't read the screens properly. At Leeds on Saturday the 10.19 to Morecambe came from Neville Hill with a 144 at the front and two 153s joined at the back. The screen clearly said "Use the front carriages only" but there were still people trying to get on the train at the back.

Also, I wonder how much time is lost waiting for the stragglers? Quite often you see the conductor hold the doors for 30 seconds to let a few more people on. At busy stations this must have a big cumulative effect throughout the day. At Manchester Piccadilly they are not too bad, usually if its a 142 to New Mills or Marple at teh front of the platform, even if someone is running the doors are closed and its ding ding and away.

 

[Snapper]

He does carry a degree of Labour "baggage" with him, not least from his education days plus as a Lord he cannot come to the House of Commons and is thus not truly accountable to MPs in the normal manner.

Also any transition to the Conservative Party would be his THIRD change of Political allegiance illustrating either a lack of Political belief or a leaving us to consider other less altruistic motivations.

Yes, after all, no Tory has ever crossed the floor, have they....

Adonis has mentioned this idea (as an idea) some time ago, but there's no firm plan to implement it.

 

[Geezertronic]

Also any transition to the Conservative Party would be his THIRD change of Political allegiance illustrating either a lack of Political belief or a leaving us to consider other less altruistic motivations.

I would make it his second, his first being Alliance/Lib Dems to Labour. Which one is missing?

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes, after all, no Tory has ever crossed the floor, have they..

Yes, a tory defected to labour a few years ago.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, after all, no Tory has ever crossed the floor, have they.....

Yes of course a few did but they were self-serving and looking at preferment. Not the sort that were a loss to the Party. Of course now they have a major problem don't they.

Labour Ministers and senior Party figures are now trying to worm there way into favour with David Cameron and position themselves for possible preferment, even to the extent of now accepting that Mrs Thatcher was right after all.

Which very famous Labour person said this I wonder ?

The 1980s saw the timely privatization of industries that were long overdue for return to the commercial sector. Industrial relations underwent a sea change. The quality of management in our best firms improved, and with it, corporate profitability.
First and foremost we need to foster a new climate for enterprise in Britain. There is no substitute for this – no substitute for the drive and ambition that it brings … it is the single most important engine of economic progress. The recovery cannot be driven by consumer debt or public spending. It will be driven by private sector investment and private enterprise.
Enterprise and reward go hand in hand. Much as it shocked many of my friends when I said I was comfortable with people making themselves “filthy rich”, in the context I was speaking I was simply stating a simple truth: that enterprise and effort should be rewarded. It sets goals to spur people and brings gains to us all … there is never a case for punitive taxation. There is never a case for rates of tax that remove the incentive to self-improvement or to build a business.

The Damascean conversion continues apace.

Some much for Labour beliefs, eh ?

Must be a difficult time for what's left of the Party "faithful".

 

[shinkansen1966]

The trouble with setting targets is that you can do a backroom fiddle to ensure they are met. And this has happened with railway times. Others on this forum have spotted that too, seeing the timetables have been padded to allow for a recovery from delays.

What annoys me, and this happened now and again, is train being held by signals outside the terminus because it is early. I'm quite happy to arrive somewhere earlier than expected.

Thanks to a complex financial package, money is paid from train companies to Network Rail (who own the track and stations) when a train is late. It's the other way around when a train is early. Once I was on a First Great Western (FGW) train which arrived in Paddington 3.5 hrs late. I asked FGW what compensation they would get from Network Rail/Railtrack for the delay. They would not tell me.

Things have improved a lot since the lows days after Hatfield. Remember the endless safety speed restrictions and expensive maintenance work which followed?

Agree with a universal late, if a train is more than 5 mins late.

 

[Oswyntail]

What the country has needed for a very long time is akin to Gordon Brown's "GOAT" (Remember that, "Government of all the talents"), but done for the benefit of the country rather than just grabbing celebrity glitter. It is such a colossal waste of talent that says, just because someone is in a particular party they cannot be considered for work under another. Especially when, as seems to be the case now, the policies of the main parties in this area seem to be in agreement. There is no constitutional reason why he cannot continue as a minister, though it would be difficult to see him in the cabinet, and hence he would have to be a junior. In Lords business he would be free (as, in theory all members of both houses are) to vote against the government on non-transport matters.

 

[O L Leigh]

I wonder how much time is lost waiting for the stragglers?

It's not specifically the stragglers I was referring to.

It's all the punters for Ponders End (for example) sitting right down at the back and only using the last three sets of doors. It takes ages waiting for them all to unload. And then you get folk boarding waiting at these same three sets of doors. What's wrong with the other thirteen sets...???!!! :-x

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Passengers are often idiots. I mean, I see the same people every morning at Finsbury Park getting off a King's Cross service to swap to a Moorgate service. Same time, every day. The service is advertised as a 3-car and it IS a 3-car. Yet, people are always surprised and have to walk down to then cram on to the last set of doors! Why can't they remember for the next day?!

So many people alight at Finsbury Park for the tube/FCC services to King's Cross, there's always room on the train - but you'd never know if you look at the third carriage!

However, station design can play a big part on where people stand. Where's the shelter? Where is the waiting room? Where are the information screens and speakers? Where's the information to tell irregular travellers where the trains will stop?