Looe Valley line survival

[yorksrob]

There was a scheme in the 1930's to build a whole new route from East of Liskeard to Looe over viaducts and through tunnels. WWII got in the way.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It would also be very steep - these photos (not mine, from RMWeb) show the problem:

Coombe Junction Photographs

Recently I took some photographs around Coombe Junction on the Looe Valley Line. Thought they may be of some interest. Here goes: ATW 150 279 arrives at Coombe Junction from Looe. The ground frame at the junction. Coombe Junction Halt itself. 150 279 arrives from Liskeard. With no passengers wait...

www.rmweb.co.uk

Ah yes. It looks from the first photo like the line from the junction towards Looe goes downhill - is that correct? If so, I can see that would cause problems for a new chord, as it would have further to descend from the Liskeard direction to join the line to Looe.

A shame as a chord there would presumably shave several minutes off the journey, both making the train more attractive and making timetable improvements more feasible.

 

[DelW]

Ah yes. It looks from the first photo like the line from the junction towards Looe goes downhill - is that correct? If so, I can see that would cause problems for a new chord, as it would have further to descend from the Liskeard direction to join the line to Looe.

A shame as a chord there would presumably shave several minutes off the journey, both making the train more attractive and making timetable improvements more feasible.

Yes, the line to the right goes downhill (towards Looe), and that to the left climbs quite steeply (towards Liskeard), at about 1 in 40 from memory. So a chord joining the two would unfortunately have to be steeper still.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Would undoubtedly have been a major factor.

Sellafield would have been pretty established by Beeching time. Someone in Government must have had a word with Beeching and said don't be ridiculous. Was it just the passenger service to be withdrawn not necessarily the track lifted?

 

[yorksrob]

Sellafield would have been pretty established by Beeching time. Someone in Government must have had a word with Beeching and said don't be ridiculous. Was it just the passenger service to be withdrawn not necessarily the track lifted?

That's a good point. If they had have closed the passenger service they would have been required to maintain freight access, of that there is no doubt.

 

[Chester1]

I looked into bypassing Combe a few years ago and it would be hugely expensive.

Probably better to build a P&R up towards Moorswater somewhere and run it up there and back instead.

I am surprised that hasn't been looked into properly. The existing station isn't particularly good for the town centre or to drive to. A parkway station at Moorswater would only add 500m to town centre walk if a decent route was established.

I think the current crisis could be an opportunity to blur the lines between heritage and NR lines. Network Rail could purchase some lines (or parts of lines) connected to the network for services Monday to Saturdays but lease lines on Sunday for sole heritage use. Bodmin General - Parkway could be one. A lease on Sundays for the Looe branch could be given to them too or to another group. It would probably bring in extra tourists.

 

[DorkingMain]

I am surprised that hasn't been looked into properly. The existing station isn't particularly good for the town centre or to drive to. A parkway station at Moorswater would only add 500m to town centre walk if a decent route was established.

I think the current crisis could be an opportunity to blur the lines between heritage and NR lines. Network Rail could purchase some lines (or parts of lines) connected to the network for services Monday to Saturdays but lease lines on Sunday for sole heritage use. Bodmin General - Parkway could be one. A lease on Sundays for the Looe branch could be given to them too or to another group. It would probably bring in extra tourists.

The problem with running anything special on the Looe branch is:

a) The line still needs to retain a regular and accessible service for the regular pax who want to use it. There's not really any space to run more than one train on the line.
b) The access route is extremely poor and not remotely appropriate for a thumping great heritage set to roll over it.

I definitely think investigating bringing some heritage branches back to the mainline would be a good idea though (perhaps while retaining some access for heritage services). Minehead - Taunton is an obvious one.

 

[Meerkat]

A parkway station at Moorswater would only add 500m to town centre walk if a decent route was established.

And an extra 50m climb! It would still have to go to the current station for the interchange

 

[edwin_m]

I am surprised that hasn't been looked into properly. The existing station isn't particularly good for the town centre or to drive to. A parkway station at Moorswater would only add 500m to town centre walk if a decent route was established.

Unfortunately quite a lot of those metres would be vertical, and for that reason it's unlikely that the same P&R site could serve both the main line and the branch, other than by expanding the parking already provided at Liskeard station - which isn't accessible from the A38 except by driving into the town centre and out again.

I was involved in a fairly sketchy early feasibility study about 20 years ago, which didn't go any further. We were actually looking at a tram-train which would provide the local service from Plymouth and run through onto the branch via a tight (tram-only) curve at Liskeard. It could then potentially avoid Combe, but I think we came off this idea after considering the practical difficulties even with tramway geometry. There would also potentially have been a halt at the closest approach of the branch to Liskeard town, the difficulty there being track curvature - and although nearer it would also have been at a lower elevation so possibly no better to walk. With this scheme P&R at Moorswater would have provided a through service to Plymouth as well as Looe.

 

[Chester1]

The problem with running anything special on the Looe branch is:

a) The line still needs to retain a regular and accessible service for the regular pax who want to use it. There's not really any space to run more than one train on the line.
b) The access route is extremely poor and not remotely appropriate for a thumping great heritage set to roll over it.

I definitely think investigating bringing some heritage branches back to the mainline would be a good idea though (perhaps while retaining some access for heritage services). Minehead - Taunton is an obvious one.

There are still plenty of stations that don't have a Sunday service so sole use is possible. I take your point about the quality of the infrastructure though.

If any heritage line gets taken over by network rail then retaining some heritage use would be absolutely essential to having a good business case. The business case for converting the East Lancashire Railway gets hammered by the loss revenue for the area from visitors. It will be the same for the West Somerset Railway. Sole use on Sundays would make the cost of heritage services manageable and reduce the operating subsidy required for national services.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps if the heritage operation could run an all day service on saturdays, and get a third of the costs from NR for the evening ones (which they don't usually run).

NR tickets should be valid all week round, so would heritage punters buy an NR ticket on the Saturday/Sunday service just to get a ride behind a kettle ? Or would the true enthusiasts get a day ranger for the line (which from personal experience, I usually get when visiting a heritage line)

It's an interesting idea with some potential pitfalls - but definitely worth working through, in the context of bringing heritage operations into the realm of linking communities to the national rail network.

 

[DorkingMain]

There are still plenty of stations that don't have a Sunday service so sole use is possible. I take your point about the quality of the infrastructure though.

If any heritage line gets taken over by network rail then retaining some heritage use would be absolutely essential to having a good business case. The business case for converting the East Lancashire Railway gets hammered by the loss revenue for the area from visitors. It will be the same for the West Somerset Railway. Sole use on Sundays would make the cost of heritage services manageable and reduce the operating subsidy required for national services.

I'm not sure how sole use would work with PRM requirements, I presume it would require dispensation even if there was no PRM compliant service before that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There are still plenty of stations that don't have a Sunday service so sole use is possible. I take your point about the quality of the infrastructure though.

You may need to think about lines rather than stations without a Sunday service. How many lines that don't have a Sunday service arguably ought to have one, as higher priority than running expensive heritage trains for tourists? I'm going to guess, almost none.

Maybe though there are lines where the Sunday service would be sufficiently infrequent that you could run slow heritage trains between the NR trains?

 

[Llanigraham]

People seem to be forgetting that Sundays are often used by NR to do maintenance, and if the "preservationists" are using the line when is that going to be done.
Plus the lines will still have to be signalled and controlled. Are the "preservationists" going to pay the signallers wages, at Sunday rates. I can't see NR allowing access to signalling equipment by a bunch of amateurs.
Frankly this proposal is dead in the water.

 

[Gathursty]

I can only assume an extension to Moorswater would only alter the experience to a Liskeard - Moorswater - Looe journey instead of reversing at Coombe ground frame or the halt. I don't understand the logic of only doing Moorswater - Looe and banking on people making their own way from Liskeard to Moorswater.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I can only assume an extension to Moorswater would only alter the experience to a Liskeard - Moorswater - Looe journey instead of reversing at Coombe ground frame or the halt. I don't understand the logic of only doing Moorswater - Looe and banking on people making their own way from Liskeard to Moorswater.

Yes no logic in that at all as there are plenty of passengers connecting into/out of the branch unit using the mainline services at Liskeard, at least that's generally the case when we use it.

 

[philthetube]

Preserved railways haven’t come into existence by an existing line being “turned over” in the way you suggest. They have been closed. What has then happened to them subsequently Isn’t a result of any policy by the national rail industry or government.

Isn,'t that what happened with the Vale of Rheidol Railway ?

If I am correct sorry for the pedantry and a realise that there were exceptional circumstances there