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Longest Point Rodding

Ferris boy

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The longest signal cables (from box to signal)were apparently 1.34 miles at Hertford North, routed through Molewood Tunnel which prevented them overheating in warm weather. Can anyone tell me where and how long the longest point rodding was ?
 
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Gloster

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Working from memory, so caveat lector, the Board of Trade had a recomendation for the maximum distance manual points should be from the controlling box. This was originally, I think, 300 yards, but I have a feeling that this was raised to 350 yards. This limit might only apply to trailing points and was less for facing ones (180 yards?).

Quite where the longest run was I do not know, but I wish them luck and hope it was a straight run.
 

JohnofWessex

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I remember trying to pull the crossover in front of Worcester Shrub Hill SB in the late 80's and it was a b***r so length isnt everything!
 

Belperpete

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Considering that a distant was traditionally a mile before the first stop signal, distants could be quite a long way from the box. Particularly if it involved slotting the distant on the box in rear. So I wouldn't be surprised if there used to be much longer wire runs.

While BoT applied the 350 yards rule for rodding, I recall that in at least one BR design office I worked in, the limit was 250 yards. I am not sure if that was a regional or BR thing.
 

Dr Hoo

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I’m not sure that most Distants were a complete mile from the first Home. Obviously it could be influenced by gradients, line speed, need to accommodate heavy un-fitted freights, presence of tunnels, a neighbouring station platform and whatnot.
 

matchmaker

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Distance isn't everything. On an official visit to Dalmuir Park signal box during the summer of 1976 the switched diamonds, which were literally outside the box, started to jam because of the heat. It took the combined efforts of the signalman, the District Inspector, me, copious buckets of water and a crowbar to keep the North Clyde services running until S&T could arrive!
 

John Webb

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The distance that the Board of Trade allowed points to be worked from a box varied considerably over time. At first it was basically 'line of sight', but as electrical detection in particular developed, the distance was extended in stages to eventually reach the 350yard limit. Then along came power operation and that, as far as I am aware, had no limitation put upon it.
 

edwin_m

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Considering that a distant was traditionally a mile before the first stop signal, distants could be quite a long way from the box. Particularly if it involved slotting the distant on the box in rear. So I wouldn't be surprised if there used to be much longer wire runs.

While BoT applied the 350 yards rule for rodding, I recall that in at least one BR design office I worked in, the limit was 250 yards. I am not sure if that was a regional or BR thing.
Many distants on main lines were replaced by colour lights even before WW2, which was partly to allow them to be further out for higher speeds but also to make them more visible to drivers.
 

Rescars

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Some points were (maybe still are) locked mechanically, but moved by a motor powered by a hand generator (so still good physical exercise for the signaller! ) IIRC Malvern Wells had this arrangement to operate the points at the entrance to Colwall Tunnel.
 

John Webb

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Many distants on main lines were replaced by colour lights even before WW2, which was partly to allow them to be further out for higher speeds but also to make them more visible to drivers.
The LMS had a policy of converting 'Isolated Distants' from mechanical to colour-light signals for some years prior to WW2. I understand the main reason was to avoid trains being delayed in foggy/smoggy weather while 'Fogmen' were called out to attend such mechanical distant signals and had to be paid overtime, of course! The secondary benefit was the elimination of all the operating wire and dozens of support pulleys. A third benefit was the easing of the load on the signalman as he now only 'operated' an electric light switch - but I am sure that benefit was not foremost in the LMS's mind!

At St Albans South we actually have some of the paperwork relating to such a conversion in December 1938.
 

stuving

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The LMS had a policy of converting 'Isolated Distants' from mechanical to colour-light signals for some years prior to WW2. I understand the main reason was to avoid trains being delayed in foggy/smoggy weather while 'Fogmen' were called out to attend such mechanical distant signals and had to be paid overtime, of course! The secondary benefit was the elimination of all the operating wire and dozens of support pulleys. A third benefit was the easing of the load on the signalman as he now only 'operated' an electric light switch - but I am sure that benefit was not foremost in the LMS's mind!

At St Albans South we actually have some of the paperwork relating to such a conversion in December 1938.
Were there problems in practice with the temperature compensation? Obviously the expansion to be made to balance out is greater on a long wire, but so are the possibilities for other factors to upset the balance. The main one (I think) was that some parts were heated by direct sunshine, other parts were not. So did those long wires often hit the stops either way?
 

edwin_m

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Were there problems in practice with the temperature compensation? Obviously the expansion to be made to balance out is greater on a long wire, but so are the possibilities for other factors to upset the balance. The main one (I think) was that some parts were heated by direct sunshine, other parts were not. So did those long wires often hit the stops either way?
I don't see that as a problem with a wire, as it's the expansion over the whole length that matters. And presumably there was enough play in the adjustments to account for that, and the signaller could get it set correctly by reference to the aspect repeater if the signal wasn't visible from the box.

Point rodding would be more of a concern here. I believe the longer ones had a mechanism near the mid-point to convert the "pull" into a "push" so the expansion in one half cancelled out that in the other, but this wouldn't work if one half got a lot more sunlight.
 

Rail Ranger

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I recall some long point rodding from Dinting signal box which went over the top of a hill to get to the points at the junction where the curve towards Hadfield diverged from the line towards Manchester.
 

John Webb

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I don't see that as a problem with a wire, as it's the expansion over the whole length that matters. And presumably there was enough play in the adjustments to account for that, and the signaller could get it set correctly by reference to the aspect repeater if the signal wasn't visible from the box.
There were various mechanical ways of compensating over a long distance - this includes a 'lost motion' lever to increase the length of pull on the last part of the wire to allow for motion lost in the first part of the wire.
Point rodding would be more of a concern here. I believe the longer ones had a mechanism near the mid-point to convert the "pull" into a "push" so the expansion in one half cancelled out that in the other, but this wouldn't work if one half got a lot more sunlight.
The 'Compensator' is a pair of opposed cranks linked together at approximately the mid-point of the rodding run. Books such as "Railway Signal Engineering" by LP Lewis/JH Fraser and "Mechanical Railway Signalling" by H. Raynar Wilson go into some detail about calculating the location of such compensation.
 

MP33

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I read that, at one time. Health issues associated with being a signalman. Were, Hernias from pulling stiff levers and digestive problems from bolting down meals, between trains.
 

matchmaker

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The LMS had a policy of converting 'Isolated Distants' from mechanical to colour-light signals for some years prior to WW2. I understand the main reason was to avoid trains being delayed in foggy/smoggy weather while 'Fogmen' were called out to attend such mechanical distant signals and had to be paid overtime, of course! The secondary benefit was the elimination of all the operating wire and dozens of support pulleys. A third benefit was the easing of the load on the signalman as he now only 'operated' an electric light switch - but I am sure that benefit was not foremost in the LMS's mind!

At St Albans South we actually have some of the paperwork relating to such a conversion in December 1938.
"Isolated Distants" were regarded by the LMS S&T Engineer, A F Bound, as an important marker and he introduced the practice of painting the (tubular) post in alternate 2 foot wide black and white bands. This applied to both semaphore and colour light signals.
 

Gloster

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I read that, at one time. Health issues associated with being a signalman. Were, Hernias from pulling stiff levers and digestive problems from bolting down meals, between trains.

Also injuries from crashing backwards when a long signal wire broke and the lever flew back.
 

Belperpete

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There were various mechanical ways of compensating over a long distance - this includes a 'lost motion' lever to increase the length of pull on the last part of the wire to allow for motion lost in the first part of the wire.
I was under the impression that these levers were more about ensuring the signal returned to danger?

The 'Compensator' is a pair of opposed cranks linked together at approximately the mid-point of the rodding run. Books such as "Railway Signal Engineering" by LP Lewis/JH Fraser and "Mechanical Railway Signalling" by H. Raynar Wilson go into some detail about calculating the location of such compensation.
The compensator basically changes push motion into pull, or v.v. The aim being to have the same amount of rodding in push as in pull. However, you don't necessarily need a compensator, you can achieve the same thing where cranks are used to change the direction of the rodding, eg to pass under the track, you can also change push to pull.
 

d9009alycidon

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Slightly off topic, but I am aware that there were multiple locations in Scotland were there was gauntletted track from a point near the signalbox to a junction which would have required a long rod.
 

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