Longest HST & HST sleeper trains

[Masbroughlad]

Is the longest HST ever run a 9 coach with 2 power cars?

What is the longest HST that would be operationally feasible?

Also, were mk3 sleeper vehicles ever destined to work with class 43 power cars?

 

[455driver]

Is the longest HST ever run a 9 coach with 2 power cars?

In normal service, yes.
I recall that one complete HST set was used to rescue failed HST but cant remember when it was.
Back to back PCs have resued HSTs quite a few times.

What is the longest HST that would be operationally feasible?

Depends on the platform lengths and what sort of performance you are intending to run at.

Also, were mk3 sleeper vehicles ever destined to work with class 43 power cars?

No, the ETS supply is completely different.
Back to back HST powercars have rescues the FGW sleeper a few times though.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Semi-off-topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqXecQ9KZJE

How about that for a rescue of a HST set?

Can an HST operate in normal service with only one power car running or would it be declared a failure?

 

[route:oxford]

Can an HST operate in normal service with only one power car running or would it be declared a failure?

It depends on the diagram.

A unit with a failed power car is unlikely to be sent from Edinburgh to Inverness due to the gradients.

 

[The Planner]

We have dedicated SRTs for 2+7, 2+8, 2+9 and Im fairly sure there was a 2+10 though it was very sparsely populated.

 

[jopsuk]

It depends on the diagram.

A unit with a failed power car is unlikely to be sent from Edinburgh to Inverness due to the gradients.

I think the same applies west of Exeter- and that's with 2+7/2+8 formations!

 

[CC 72100]

I think the same applies west of Exeter- and that's with 2+7/2+8 formations!

That's now been 'relaxed' slightly. They can certainly now go to Plymouth, although in that case they do not stop at Totnes (whether booked or not).

 

[Suraggu]

It depends on the diagram.

A unit with a failed power car is unlikely to be sent from Edinburgh to Inverness due to the gradients.

Also Aberdeen is a no go for a single powering power car.

 

[43167]

Semi-off-topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqXecQ9KZJE

How about that for a rescue of a HST set?

Can an HST operate in normal service with only one power car running or would it be declared a failure?

Yes, seen and had plenty single powercar working, infact Grand Central deliberately run their HST's on one powercar between Sunderland & Northallerton.

 

[91104]

I once took an HST on one power car from Newcastle to Kings Cross and it was the front one which wasn't running so was eerily quiet. I lost an hour in time plus had a Durham call which meant starting on an uphill gradient so gave it full power,counted to 10 released the brakes and kept my fingers crossed and was very relieved when it started creeping forward.

 

[SprinterMan]

Yes, seen and had plenty single powercar working, infact Grand Central deliberately run their HST's on one powercar between Sunderland & Northallerton.

Really? Wow, didn't know that. I assume this is down to the lower line speeds meaning performance is not needed and fuel can be saved. I take it that it is the front power car that is in operation?

Adam

 

[455driver]

It will also mean that the PC in use will be working harder and so keeping all the operating temperatures up and within spec, they dont like to run cool.

 

[SprinterMan]

It will also mean that the PC in use will be working harder and so keeping all the operating temperatures up and within spec, they dont like to run cool.

Didn't know that, do the big MTU V16s generally like to run quite warm then?

Adam

 

[455driver]

Didn't know that, do the big MTU V16s generally like to run quite warm then?

Adam

After walking through the engine room to assist a driver (at the TMs request) after a PHBT I would say yes, it was fullipin hot in there.

 

[irish_rail]

I recently took 43022 dead over the Devon banks on an up service. Was only 10 late at Bristol despite being a stopper, so 2 PCs isnt the be all and end all, though as mentioned by another poster, in down direction, Totnes would not be stopped at if on one engine and running as 2+8.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I remember the 0710 Leeds to Aberdeen running with just one power at the front. Nothing attached at the back. Think it terminated in Edinburgh. GNER days.

 

[455driver]

I remember the 0710 Leeds to Aberdeen running with just one power at the front. Nothing attached at the back. Think it terminated in Edinburgh. GNER days.

I think that would be a case of a failure being removed at Neville Hill and no spare PC available so send the train up to Edinburgh where there was a spare PC and attach it there.

 

[BantamMenace]

Could a failed 91 be replaced by a 43 on a rake of mark 4s with dvt?

Also could a 43 be attached instead of a dvt to a 225 and by droving from the 91 utilise the 91 and the 43 or do 125s and 225s have completely different wiring systems?

 

[DXMachina]

Could a failed 91 be replaced by a 43 on a rake of mark 4s with dvt?

Also could a 43 be attached instead of a dvt to a 225 and by droving from the 91 utilise the 91 and the 43 or do 125s and 225s have completely different wiring systems?

In the 1980s some HSTs were rewired to make them compatible with Cl91/90/87 so they could work in multiple with them, as the Cl91 locomotives were delivered before the matching driving trailers were available

If you ever see an HST with front buffers, its one of them. However this was 20 years ago, the equipment soon became unused and was removed

 

[43167]

Really? Wow, didn't know that. I assume this is down to the lower line speeds meaning performance is not needed and fuel can be saved. I take it that it is the front power car that is in operation?

Adam

That is the reason, but its not something I agree with. The driver shuts down the lead powercar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember the 0710 Leeds to Aberdeen running with just one power at the front. Nothing attached at the back. Think it terminated in Edinburgh. GNER days.

That old classic, happened afew times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could a failed 91 be replaced by a 43 on a rake of mark 4s with dvt?

Also could a 43 be attached instead of a dvt to a 225 and by droving from the 91 utilise the 91 and the 43 or do 125s and 225s have completely different wiring systems?

No. HST's have different ETS system to conventional Loco&Coaches. In addition to what DX said, as the 91's were delivered sometime before the 1st Mk4's arrived, Some HST sets were modified to allow the 91's to enter service, the work included fitting the TGS with buffers, buckeye couplings & TDM cables fitted on the outer end. Once they had served their purpose, the returned to been normal HST's and the buffers and buckeyes removed.

 

[BantamMenace]

So was there a time when a rake of coaches could be top and tailed by a 43 and a 91 with both providing power at the same time? Wasnt that essentially the concept for the original bi-mode IEP design?

 

[Martin_1981]

I recently took 43022 dead over the Devon banks on an up service. Was only 10 late at Bristol despite being a stopper, so 2 PCs isnt the be all and end all, though as mentioned by another poster, in down direction, Totnes would not be stopped at if on one engine and running as 2+8.

I did Plymouth to St Erth in August last year on a poorly FGW HST, front power car shut down between Plymouth and Liskeard and the speed of the train dropped considerably, didn't get much above 40mph fo the rest of the journey and struggled like hell when pulling out of stations. Surprised it only lost 15 minutes.

 

[bnm]

I think that would be a case of a failure being removed at Neville Hill and no spare PC available so send the train up to Edinburgh where there was a spare PC and attach it there.

Would braking performance be reduced with no rear power car? Or is that negated by the reduced mass of the train, not having to haul the 'dead' weight?

Would there also be an imposed speed limit with no rear power car attached, lower than could be achieved by a full set running on one engine? I believe a single engine hauling 2+8 can still get past 110mph and possibly hit 125mph. Takes a fair old while to get there though, falling gradient will help, and requires thrashing at full power to maintain.

 

[Gavmnnng]

Any HST running on one engine over Dainton is preceded by a request for a straight run through Newton Abbot even if booked to stop.
Quite often run through platform 3 to keep him moving!

 

[43167]

So was there a time when a rake of coaches could be top and tailed by a 43 and a 91 with both providing power at the same time? Wasnt that essentially the concept for the original bi-mode IEP design?

Yes. Gutted never got to sample it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . , in down direction, Totnes would not be stopped at if on one engine and running as 2+8.

I guess that's the greatest challenge for an HST in daily service - in fact, if you can get over Dainton Bank and then down to Totnes, you'd probably feel that you'd passed the greatest challenge.

A unit with a failed power car is unlikely to be sent from Edinburgh to Inverness due to the gradients.

Indeed, it's not permitted.
But of course that leaves us with the question of how to deal with a set whose fault became apparent after having departed northwards from, say, Perth. I travelled on a set which did develop a fault in one power car over the Highlands, and whch received extensive attention overnight in Inverness. On the morning's 'up' working, the suspect PC repeatedly cut out, several times (after making an impressively fast climb through Culloden as far as Moy). It was swapped at Waverley - but made it in good time nevertheless.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

From a driving point of view, what difference is there between driving a 9 coach HST with a shutdown or failed power car and a 9 coach loco hauled train (apart from a loco hauled train having to have the loco run round the train in places. There must be a little less weight with a loco hauled train as you won't have however many tons an HST power car is with a full fuel tank.

 

[gazthomas]

So was there a time when a rake of coaches could be top and tailed by a 43 and a 91 with both providing power at the same time? Wasnt that essentially the concept for the original bi-mode IEP design?

The 43's were temporary surrogate driving van trailers (DVTs) while the proper ones for the mark 4 coaches were made.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, seen and had plenty single powercar working, infact Grand Central deliberately run their HST's on one powercar between Sunderland & Northallerton.

Do they? Where do they fire up/shut the other power car? I cant recall hearing one at Northallerton station with a dead lump at one end.

 

[43167]

Shut down on arrival Northallerton going north. Going south normally Northallerton, but i've known them go to Thirsk before firing up.

There was one occasion when they got to Northallerton, the front powercar wouldn't start, tried again at Thirsk nothing, and also at York. Had to continue with only the back powercar working, which ran out of fuel at Peterborough.