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Longer XC trains

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1018509

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I live on the XC route from Bournemouth to Manchester. These trains are always overcrowded because of their ridiculously short length.

When are we going to see longer trains on this route?
 
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Jatos

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Quite a good question.

When someone orders some more voyager carriages? Which is probably never...
 

Rich McLean

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I would hazard a guess when the line is electrified, which won't be for a while yet
 

Goatboy

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I live on the XC route from Bournemouth to Manchester. These trains are always overcrowded because of their ridiculously short length.

When are we going to see longer trains on this route?

Not anytime soon. Don't worry, I'm sure they'll continue to 'manage demand' by increasing the cost of the fares until such time as everyone gives up travelling with them and the trains are then more comfortably loaded.
 

ainsworth74

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Hopefully this route will receive EMUs once it's been wired up and you'd hope at that time the units procured will be better matched to the demand.
 

Goatboy

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Hopefully this route will receive EMUs once it's been wired up and you'd hope at that time the units procured will be better matched to the demand.

Realistically though this is the best part of a decade away and ISTR electrification is planned for Reading to Southampton and not Bournemouth?
 

yorksrob

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Or, they could procure a couple of spare HST's off EMT, double up their existing Voyager fleet a bit more and not retire half of their existing HST's every autumn.
 

Zoe

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Or, they could procure a couple of spare HST's off EMT, double up their existing Voyager fleet a bit more and not retire half of their existing HST's every autumn.
Doesn't the fact that they don't even use all of their HST fleet suggest that they don't need any extra stock?
 

tbtc

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Doesn't the fact that they don't even use all of their HST fleet suggest that they don't need any extra stock?

During the summer they use 4/5 sets IIRC?

It says something about the leasing costs/ benefits of selling additional tickets if it's not worth them using four HSTs during the winter - there seems no incentive for them to use that capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or, they could procure a couple of spare HST's off EMT

Given that EMT have already lost an HST to East Coast, do they have any "spare" sets?
 

Zoe

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During the summer they use 4/5 sets IIRC?
Yes sorry, was referring to the stock they are using now. I believe when the timetable was introduced in December 2008, there were four HST diagrams even in the winter.
 

yorksrob

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Doesn't the fact that they don't even use all of their HST fleet suggest that they don't need any extra stock?

You know, it's strange, that even in the winter, the complaints of overcrowding never seem to go away though, isn't it !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given that EMT have already lost an HST to East Coast, do they have any "spare" sets?

Fair point, although I've always heard that since project Rio and the influx of 22* units, they've had a surplus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes sorry, was referring to the stock they are using now. I believe when the timetable was introduced in December 2008, there were four HST diagrams even in the winter.

Last time I checked on the IC125 website, there were 4 in the summer and 2 in the winter.
 

Zoe

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Last time I checked on the IC125 website, there were 4 in the summer and 2 in the winter.
Yes but I believe there were four diagrams all year from December 2008 to December 2009. There must be a reason why there are now only two in the winter.
 

yorksrob

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Yes but I believe there were four diagrams all year from December 2008 to December 2009. There must be a reason why there are now only two in the winter.

Quite possibly. But not necessarily due to lack of overcrowding.
 

tbtc

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Yes but I believe there were four diagrams all year from December 2008 to December 2009. There must be a reason why there are now only two in the winter.

The version I'd heard was that the Voyagers are fully leased but the HST lease is more of a "pay as you go" contract, so they have less incentive to use them as intensively.

This could be nonsense of course, but it makes me wonder how the economics stack up if they have no financial inventive to use longer trains on these busy services. Is it because they get the same ORCATS money regardless, so there's no gain to them if passengers are sat down on a long train compared to stood on a shorter one?
 
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That's nearly right.

Voyagers are a wet lease, so they (XC) pay for the guaranteed provision of a certain number of sets per day, fully maintained. If they don't use them, they still pay the full whack.

The HSTs are dry lease, which means they pay the basic rental charge, but are responsible for all maintenance costs themselves. Therefore, if they don't use, they don't have to do maintenance, and they save money. This is why all 5 sets have had one trailer car removed, and with the exception of peak summer weekends (and when there are service disruption problems) they will use HSTs to the bare minimum with only two sets diagrammed. It was even being mooted at one stage this year, that they would not diagram any from December.

You will also find they are likely to be laid up between Christmas and New Year (as with most previous years) - not because there is no demand, but because they can claim that there is no demand and the London based Dft will be fooled into believeing it as no one is at work and trains are only ever used by Commuters.:o
 

Simon11

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Yep, ORCATS doesn't taken into account the length of the set. Therefore the only gain would be from selling additional advance products and giving a better image for XC with less crowding thus potentially more customers.

With revenue support of having 20% of the gain but 100% of the cost, it doesn't seem worth running the sets???
 

yorksrob

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That's nearly right.

Voyagers are a wet lease, so they (XC) pay for the guaranteed provision of a certain number of sets per day, fully maintained. If they don't use them, they still pay the full whack.

The HSTs are dry lease, which means they pay the basic rental charge, but are responsible for all maintenance costs themselves. Therefore, if they don't use, they don't have to do maintenance, and they save money. This is why all 5 sets have had one trailer car removed, and with the exception of peak summer weekends (and when there are service disruption problems) they will use HSTs to the bare minimum with only two sets diagrammed. It was even being mooted at one stage this year, that they would not diagram any from December.

You will also find they are likely to be laid up between Christmas and New Year (as with most previous years) - not because there is no demand, but because they can claim that there is no demand and the London based Dft will be fooled into believeing it as no one is at work and trains are only ever used by Commuters.:o

Well, that certainly seems to be a shambolic way to run a railway.
 

tbtc

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Yep, ORCATS doesn't taken into account the length of the set. Therefore the only gain would be from selling additional advance products and giving a better image for XC with less crowding thus potentially more customers.

With revenue support of having 20% of the gain but 100% of the cost, it doesn't seem worth running the sets???

This is a very important point. XC seems to be a Gordian Knot of a franchise - horribly busy trains charging high prices yet apparently still needing subsidy - and no incentive to run longer trains (which would allow cheap advanced tickets etc).

How do you solve that? Seems a three pipe problem!

That's nearly right.

Voyagers are a wet lease, so they (XC) pay for the guaranteed provision of a certain number of sets per day, fully maintained. If they don't use them, they still pay the full whack.

The HSTs are dry lease, which means they pay the basic rental charge, but are responsible for all maintenance costs themselves. Therefore, if they don't use, they don't have to do maintenance, and they save money. This is why all 5 sets have had one trailer car removed, and with the exception of peak summer weekends (and when there are service disruption problems) they will use HSTs to the bare minimum with only two sets diagrammed. It was even being mooted at one stage this year, that they would not diagram any from December.

You will also find they are likely to be laid up between Christmas and New Year (as with most previous years) - not because there is no demand, but because they can claim that there is no demand and the London based Dft will be fooled into believeing it as no one is at work and trains are only ever used by Commuters.:o

Cheers for the details :)
 

D365

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.. Getting back on topic, it wouldn't be possible to build more powered Voyager carriages due to engine emission regulations having tightened. Trailers may be possible but as Project Thor/eVoyager seems to be dead in the water, I doubt any will take shape.

Which is a shame as they would be a lot more useful with another one or two carriages and bi-mode. I don't know about structural regulations, but couldn't the project be snuk through like the 350s are being done? Just a thought, it's not going to be that simple..
 

Zoe

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it wouldn't be possible to build more powered Voyager carriages due to engine emission regulations having tightened. Trailers may be possible but as Project Thor/eVoyager seems to be dead in the water, I doubt any will take shape.
Is it impossible to build new Voyager coaches with compliant engines?
 
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HSTEd

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Is it impossible to build new Voyager coaches with a compliant engines?

The MU compatible QSK-19 variant has been decomissioned as it doesn't meet the latest emission regs.
The conventional QSK-19 is still in production but won't fit below the floor of the Voyager bodyshell.
 

D365

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I interpreted that as completely different engine models, which probably wouldn't be possible simply because of incompatibility?
 

The Ham

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Goatboy

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That's nearly right.

Voyagers are a wet lease, so they (XC) pay for the guaranteed provision of a certain number of sets per day, fully maintained. If they don't use them, they still pay the full whack.

The HSTs are dry lease, which means they pay the basic rental charge, but are responsible for all maintenance costs themselves. Therefore, if they don't use, they don't have to do maintenance, and they save money. This is why all 5 sets have had one trailer car removed, and with the exception of peak summer weekends (and when there are service disruption problems) they will use HSTs to the bare minimum with only two sets diagrammed. It was even being mooted at one stage this year, that they would not diagram any from December.

You will also find they are likely to be laid up between Christmas and New Year (as with most previous years) - not because there is no demand, but because they can claim that there is no demand and the London based Dft will be fooled into believeing it as no one is at work and trains are only ever used by Commuters.:o

Wow, that is absolutely shambolic and completely not in the passengers interests at all. It is shameful that such situations are allowed to arise. It's difficult to blame XC for it given they are a private company and the first duty of such a company is to maximise shareholder value. The blame must lie with whoever it is that's devised such a stupid system whereby it's good business sense to deliberately reduce your capacity on already crowded services.

Travelling XC and finding an HST turn up is a godsend - you can actually have a comfortable, pleasant journey. Otherwise it's usually stepping over people in vestibules.

It's staggering that they are allowed to run trains with people standing and sitting in emergency exits whilst at the same time they have additional capacity simply parked up and unused.

There is a full HST set that sits parked up, out of use all weekend at Laira. Meanwhile, XC services over the weekend to and from the Westcountry are, as always, dangerously overcrowded (You should never have to step over people sleeping on the floor to get between coaches).
 

Zoe

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Travelling XC and finding an HST turn up is a godsend - you can actually have a comfortable, pleasant journey. Otherwise it's usually stepping over people in vestibules.
I've been on the 1223 ex Plymouth and have noticed quite a few empty seats even east of Exeter. I expect the reason an HST is used on this service is that it goes through the Midlands in the evening peak.
 
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Simon11

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HST are timed so that at the end of the day, they finish in the North where they are looked after.
 

Manchester77

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Surely if they run 4 out of 5 HSTs a day XC could then use displaced voyagers to double up other services. Even if you up the HSTs on Scotland-SouthWest that'll displace some voyagers.
 

Zoe

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It would be quite surprising if they didn't diagram the trains to pass through the Midlands at the times they were most needed. The train that forms the 12:23 from Plymouth passes through the Midlands in the morning peak and returns during the evening peak.
 
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