long wheelbase coal wagons replacing HAAs?

[NightatLaira]

I'm interested in knowing about the development and design behind the long wheelbase coal wagons which started taking over from the HAAs of the 80s and 90s.

Why do they have fronts and rears which point diagonally downwards as opposed to a traditional hopper. Does this make them easier to fill/load/unload? Where was this approach first pioneered?

I remember seeing HAAs regularly until around 2005, I know they still do the occasional rounds in places, but Are they due to be phased out?

 

[Geeves]

Im fairly certain there are no services left using HAA hoppers. I seem to remember or I might be totally wrong that the last jobs (around the NW at least) being to the Blue Circle terminal at Hope delivering coal to the Cement works. It must be about 4 or 5 years since I saw an HAAs passing through Manchester.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think a lot of haa's have been sold for scrap now.

 

[w1bbl3]

The HXA's / HHA's are still internally "hopper" shaped however the increased length is far more volumetrically efficient than the HAA's in terms of cubic volume carried. Also the integral semi lids reduce loss of coal at speed which is important as the flows increased in length from the 90's onwards with the rise of imported coal.

Long wheel base stock can generally carry 75t of coal against 33t for a HAA.

The HAA's are and where basically a late 60's design that saw production throughout the 70's with last few being produced in the very early 80's when flows where generally short pit to power station runs at 45mph rather than dock to power station.

The youngest stock will be 32 years old and oldest 50 years old this year.

 

[jopsuk]

One major flow that has switched is coal to Longannet. The longer wheelbase wagons have a higher axle load; they're not permitted (loaded) over the Forth Rail bridge. The reopening of the Alloa line allows the heavier, more efficient wagons

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I saw something about 18 months ago about a campaign to secure some of the last remaining HAA hoppers for preservation, there being only a handful left from the thousands that used to circulate endlessly between pit and power station.

 

[sprinterguy]

I saw something about 18 months ago about a campaign to secure some of the last remaining HAA hoppers for preservation, there being only a handful left from the thousands that used to circulate endlessly between pit and power station.

Indeed, there was this discussion that was had:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95328

At the time, there were a little over twenty HAAs left (in store) on the national network.

I do believe that Geeves is correct that one of the very last flows to use HAA hoppers was the shipment of coal to Hope cement works - I have photos of a rake in Earles sidings as recently as 2009.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

There's 2 HAA's sat at Alexandra Dock Junction with trees growing out of them.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Indeed, there was this discussion that was had:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95328

At the time, there were a little over twenty HAAs left (in store) on the national network.

I do believe that Geeves is correct that one of the very last flows to use HAA hoppers was the shipment of coal to Hope cement works - I have photos of a rake in Earles sidings as recently as 2009.

At least they still can been seen in revenue earning service in Cornwall,in the form of CDA China clay hoppers.

 

[Strathclyder]

Am I right in thinking that a HAA has been preserved by the NRM? I seem to remember seeing a image of one at Shildon (or was it York?) on here at the beginning of the year.

 

[Daz9284]

Am I right in thinking that a HAA has been preserved by the NRM? I seem to remember seeing a image of one at Shildon (or was it York?) on here at the beginning of the year.

I think it was the first, or last HAA to be built at Shildon, and it is at Shildon NRM

 

[class 9]

There is one preserved outside the offices of DBS Knottingley depot, been there at least a couple of years.

 

[tjlrailblue]

Where are the other HAAs preserved?

Is there a website that lists all preserved wagons by type?

Are CDAs still in use then?

Sorry for questions and no info!


Tim

 

[Ash Bridge]

Are CDAs still in use then?

Sorry for questions and no info!


Tim

Yes CDAs are still in use in Cornwall.

 

[theageofthetra]

Are these the ones being dragged to Grove Park sidings on the down side and being gradually cut up.

 

[w1bbl3]

I think it was the first, or last HAA to be built at Shildon, and it is at Shildon NRM

The last one is preserved at Shildon actually HDA 368459 IIRC. One of the first was sent for preservation with SRPS Boness HCA 350001, this was the prototype covered version.
NRM Shildon also have the first HAA 350000.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think it's a great pity that an effort was not made to create a "wind cutter" rake similar to what can be seen on the GCR. I know that kind of thing requires funding but having grown up in the East Midlands (deep in MGR country) it's the kind of thing that I would have helped to fund.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think it's a great pity that an effort was not made to create a "wind cutter" rake similar to what can be seen on the GCR. I know that kind of thing requires funding but having grown up in the East Midlands (deep in MGR country) it's the kind of thing that I would have helped to fund.

Was there not an appeal started sometime last year aiming to do just that. I may be wrong but it rings a bell that it was a Class 56 owning group with the idea of saving some of the last surviving wagons, don't know if they achieved their aim, seems to have gone quiet lately.

 

[nottsnurse]

http://www.gcrailway.co.uk/the-railway/rolling-stock/windcutter-wagons/

 

[tjlrailblue]

yes there was an appeal to buy some for preservation I read it somewhere too

I wonder if one of each major type of wagon built in the 60s and 70s has been preserved somewhere? we need a kind of noah's ark train ferry to save an example of each type from scrap!

Tim

 

[RichmondCommu]

yes there was an appeal to buy some for preservation I read it somewhere too

I wonder if one of each major type of wagon built in the 60s and 70s has been preserved somewhere? we need a kind of noah's ark train ferry to save an example of each type from scrap!

Tim

Apologies for going off topic but I think the Midland Railway Centre have preserved a ferry wagon. Two of the ICI wagons that ran for many years from Peak Forest have also rescued by the MRC. However, rather like the wind cutters everything relies on volunteers, the necessary skills that those volunteers bring and money!

 

[Ash Bridge]

yes there was an appeal to buy some for preservation I read it somewhere too

I wonder if one of each major type of wagon built in the 60s and 70s has been preserved somewhere? we need a kind of noah's ark train ferry to save an example of each type from scrap!

Tim

Nice thought! Was just thinking of another once common freight vehicle, Cargowaggons, huge bogie type vans about 70ft. in lenth, they seemed to operate on other European countries networks too, haven't seen one of those for a long time, do they still operate I wonder?

 

[Mugby]

Does anyone know what the difference was between the HAA and HBA wagons?

The HBAs usually had the top section of the body painted red. Were the two types compatible?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Nice thought! Was just thinking of another once common freight vehicle, Cargowaggons, huge bogie type vans about 70ft. in lenth, they seemed to operate on other European countries networks too, haven't seen one of those for a long time, do they still operate I wonder?

I'm pretty certain I've seen something very similar at Wembley yard. I think they operate through the tunnel carrying mineral water although I might be wrong on the exact wagon type. I'm guessing here that they were / are all leased.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Does anyone know what the difference was between the HAA and HBA wagons?

The HBAs usually had the top section of the body painted red. Were the two types compatible?

I think the HBA may be for the conveyance of domestic coal.

I'm pretty certain I've seen something very similar at Wembley yard. I think they operate through the tunnel carrying mineral water although I might be wrong on the exact wagon type. I'm guessing here that they were / are all leased.

Ah yes, that's now ringing bells, I've seen that somewhere although I think there is/was a two axle version of the Cargowagon as well.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think the HBA may be for the conveyance of domestic coal.


Ah yes, that's now ringing bells, I've seen that somewhere although I think there is/was a two axle version of the Cargowagon as well.

Yes you're right what I've seen at Wembley Yard is the two axle variety. In terms of the 70ft Cargowaggons, have they been converted to carry logs? I saw something at Ribblehead this summer that looked very similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the HBA may be for the conveyance of domestic coal.

Yes that's right. From memory I think the HBA's had a different body shape but I might be wrong. I'm pretty certain that three of them are now attached to the back of a Intermodal service carrying aggregate to Scotland. Perhaps the mixed freight is making a come back!

 

[edwin_m]

Yes you're right what I've seen at Wembley Yard is the two axle variety. In terms of the 70ft Cargowaggons, have they been converted to carry logs? I saw something at Ribblehead this summer that looked very similar.

The log carriers used to be hi-cube wagons for carrying Rover parts, which probably went out of use when Rover folded. There are a couple of rakes of unconverted ones mouldering in Washwood Heath sidings.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes you're right what I've seen at Wembley Yard is the two axle variety. In terms of the 70ft Cargowaggons, have they been converted to carry logs? I saw something at Ribblehead this summer that looked very similar.

Yes, and I think you could be right. Did you mean the Colas operated wagons? Just been looking at a pic of a rake behind a 56, and they do look like possible conversions, thanks for that.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The log carriers used to be hi-cube wagons for carrying Rover parts, which probably went out of use when Rover folded. There are a couple of rakes of unconverted ones mouldering in Washwood Heath sidings.

Thanks very much for this! I did wonder where they'd come from. Do you know who owns the remaining wagons that are dumped at Washwood Heath?

Apologies for going off topic but has Washwood Heath now been severed from the network? I know it's some years since DBS closed the yard.

 

[WatcherZero]

The HXA's / HHA's are still internally "hopper" shaped however the increased length is far more volumetrically efficient than the HAA's in terms of cubic volume carried. Also the integral semi lids reduce loss of coal at speed which is important as the flows increased in length from the 90's onwards with the rise of imported coal.

Long wheel base stock can generally carry 75t of coal against 33t for a HAA.

The HAA's are and where basically a late 60's design that saw production throughout the 70's with last few being produced in the very early 80's when flows where generally short pit to power station runs at 45mph rather than dock to power station.

The youngest stock will be 32 years old and oldest 50 years old this year.

Also important as NR fines operators for spilled coal.