Long Term Passenger Rolling Stock Strategy for the Rail Industry

[northwichcat]

Don't they just repeat that story every few years tho? Wheel out 'experts', get Government to say something then all goes quiet again.

No it's not a repeat of the same story from a few years ago. The situation has got worse then it was a few years ago because approvals have been given for the closure of existing power stations while no replacement power stations are in place.

 

[HSTEd]

Not true a Toc can propose any rolling stock and any supplier and they can agree a deal for orders pre-franchise award. (Both Virgin and First already had them in place for West Coast for example). They are only required to see out the remaining lease on stock that the Dft has given a guarenteed lease duration to the ROSCO for.

Yes, but if the franchise is in receipt of state money, as every franchise is, then they are required to put out open tenders.
Note that VWC did put out a tender, but there is only one tilting train on the market so the Pendolino derivative won it.

It is far harder to write an official tender to absolutely favour a Turbostar or similar vehicle without triggering your own swathe of legal challenges regarding supposed feather bedding relating to writing a tender that only the favoured bidder can hope to meet.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, but if the franchise is in receipt of state money, as every franchise is, then they are required to put out open tenders.
Note that VWC did put out a tender, but there is only one tilting train on the market so the Pendolino derivative won it.

It is far harder to write an official tender to absolutely favour a Turbostar or similar vehicle without triggering your own swathe of legal challenges regarding supposed feather bedding relating to writing a tender that only the favoured bidder can hope to meet.

Virgin did tender and Alstom won however First also had a deal in place with CAF for spanish built units.

 

[Class377/5]

No it's not a repeat of the same story from a few years ago. The situation has got worse then it was a few years ago because approvals have been given for the closure of existing power stations while no replacement power stations are in place.

Didn't they warn of planned power cuts in 2012 tho. Maybe I'm not fully listening but does feel like a repeat warning after the last 'batch' didn't come to be.

Question is as power station closes are we having a net loss as green alternatives aren't classed as power stations yet generate power. The ability to generate power is what's important not amount of power stations.

 

[northwichcat]

Didn't they warn of planned power cuts in 2012 tho. Maybe I'm not fully listening but does feel like a repeat warning after the last 'batch' didn't come to be.

The last batch did happen in my local town and a solution is still being sought.

Town centre business posts on a business forum:

I don't know if you are aware but we along with a number of other retailers are experiencing regular electricity outages generally 2-3 per month which always result in loss to our business as sometimes it is for several hours but even short periods result in loss as people cannot finish their meals.

The electricity provider hide behind their terms and conditions that they do not guarantee supply so I can get no compensation and insurance does not cover it for short periods like this.

Net result we lose every time.

I know the Guardian ran a feature a few weeks back but I wonder if there is anything else we can do to spur council/electricity provider into action.

Any help you can suggest would be greatly appreciated

To which the local business forum have responded with:

Firstly the Knutsford Business Club, has identified at least 21 retailers have been affected by the power cuts in King Street, that does not include the businesses above the retail units, of which there are numerous. The Knutsford Business Club will make this subject basis of a lobby group which will be happy to add its weight to the urgency of a solution as we know the power cuts are costing Knutsford Businesses collectively thousands of pounds. Businesses affected by the power supply problem should email info@lithotechonline.com to register their name on the lobby list.

Secondly, to clearly identify where the problem and responsibilities lie, submit, as individual companies, your experiences and we will present this collectively to our local MP, George Osborne, Shadow Chancellor, whose secretary has requested this information to help the Knutsford Business Club lobby the Council and the Energy Supplier to come forward with an action plan and solution to the power cuts.

21 retailers in a small town is a serious problem.
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Question is as power station closes are we having a net loss as green alternatives aren't classed as power stations yet generate power. The ability to generate power is what's important not amount of power stations.

Rail electrification and increases in frequencies of electric trains (such as on the WCML and Thameslink) is the one thing that will use a significant amount of additional electricity.

A new 28" LCD TV turned on uses less power than an old 20" tube type TV on standby.

LED traffic lights are replacing traditional types, which use less energy.

Councils are reducing brightness of street lighting to save money.

More energy saving light bulbs are being used in homes.

Unfortunately, shops and businesses that would have used electricity have closed as a result of the recession and haven't all been replaced.

So overall demand for electricity should be reducing but supply is being reduced at a faster rate than demand is reducing.

 

[HSTEd]

Disruptions to supplies to businesses is inevitable in a free market system.

They have decided that it is cheaper to let such power outages happen then to build sufficient power generation capacity to cope.
This is what happens when accountants and not engineers (as in the CEGB) run the grid.


Also household electrical power supply is still climbing because efficiency savings are being swamped by the increasing amounts of hardware installed in houses.
Houses are brighter lit and instead of ~20" CRT televisions the typical television size is now nigh on 40".

 

[YorkshireBear]

3 cuts recently in north Sheffield, one in Leeds recently, and the other major one recently in York. The appear to be getting more common after where i live suffered a string of them in the early 2000's but with nothing at all between 2002 and 2011.

 

[northwichcat]

one in Leeds recently

The one in Leeds that affected ITV Yorkshire a couple of years back caused serious problems for ITV. All ITV regional programming for the northern and central regions is controlled from Leeds so one studio having no power meant 6 regions were showing the wrong regional news and wrong adverts as they had to switch to the London output.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Houses are brighter lit and instead of ~20" CRT televisions the typical television size is now nigh on 40".

Don't know about the first claim. Many people used to have 100W lightbulbs, which the government banned production of to encourage people to use low energy bulbs instead.

Just done a check on TVs. I had a 14" Toshiba CRT TV when I was at University which used 80W of electricity. I now have a 19" Philips LED TV which uses 27W of electricity. So 35% bigger TV has resulted in a 66% reduction in electricity usage.

How do new EMUs like the 379s compare to older ones like the 323s for power consumption?

 

[Gareth]

3 cuts recently in north Sheffield, one in Leeds recently, and the other major one recently in York. The appear to be getting more common after where i live suffered a string of them in the early 2000's but with nothing at all between 2002 and 2011.

Sounds rather regional. I don't know any recent ones this side of the Pennines.

 

[Rational Plan]

Disruptions to supplies to businesses is inevitable in a free market system.

They have decided that it is cheaper to let such power outages happen then to build sufficient power generation capacity to cope.
This is what happens when accountants and not engineers (as in the CEGB) run the grid.


Also household electrical power supply is still climbing because efficiency savings are being swamped by the increasing amounts of hardware installed in houses.
Houses are brighter lit and instead of ~20" CRT televisions the typical television size is now nigh on 40".

But it is not a free market, the government has been subsidising wind and solar power through increased energy bills while making it difficult to build new coal stations or gas stations in the last 5 years or so.

The energy market is a creation of government regulation, it sets the incentives and decides the returns on capital people are allowed to make.

The current mess extends from the early 2000's.

The only solution now, is a dash for more gas until new nuclear can come on stream.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sounds rather regional. I don't know any recent ones this side of the Pennines.

I dont tend to pick up on any power cuts outside where i live you see :P Not my hot topic for research. Was just giving a regional view
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The one in Leeds that affected ITV Yorkshire a couple of years back caused serious problems for ITV. All ITV regional programming for the northern and central regions is controlled from Leeds so one studio having no power meant 6 regions were showing the wrong regional news and wrong adverts as they had to switch to the London output.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How do new EMUs like the 379s compare to older ones like the 323s for power consumption?

I know that a 377 uses around 3 times more energy than a 315. (im going to go find exact figures now)

Right, this is a from the a presentation in september i went to.
In 1975 a 315 EMU (not 317 as i posted earlier) used 678kWh per 4 car unit.
The new 377 EMU uses 1.7MWh per 4 car unit. So an increase of about 2.6.

They of course do more than the old units do, but still it is the only transport mode to become less energy efficient over last 30 years.

 

[D365]

I know that a 377 uses around 3 times more energy than a 315. (im going to go find exact figures now)

Right, this is a from the a presentation in september i went to.
In 1975 a 315 EMU (not 317 as i posted earlier) used 678kWh per 4 car unit.
The new 377 EMU uses 1.7MWh per 4 car unit. So an increase of about 2.6.

They of course do more than the old units do, but still it is the only transport mode to become less energy efficient over last 30 years.

What are the primary factors in this increase? A/C and computerised TMS for a start, increased weight due to stricter safety regulations...

 

[jopsuk]

A 315 is listed as having a tractive power output of 656kW, at a weight of 127.5 tonnes
A 377 is about 1,200kW at 173.6 tonnes
so yes, they draw much, much more power for on board systems, but they also have a superior tractive power to weight ratio. Even with the different gearing, I'd reckon a 377 should be able to show a 315 a clean pair of heels to 75mph, and obviously keep going to 100mph.

 

[D365]

And greater acceleration, I forgot to mention that! Makes sense, by that I presume the GA 379s keep up with the 315s :P

 

[W230]

...but with nothing at all between 2002 and 2011.

Didn't the floods back in June 2007 give you a power outage?

They certainly did for me, in NW Sheffield - no electricity for around 36 hours in a 48 hour period!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Didn't the floods back in June 2007 give you a power outage?

They certainly did for me, in NW Sheffield - no electricity for around 36 hours in a 48 hour period!

I dont remember actually. Dont think we did but I know hillsborough and stocksbridge did.

 

[tbtc]

Didn't the floods back in June 2007 give you a power outage?

They certainly did for me, in NW Sheffield - no electricity for around 36 hours in a 48 hour period!

They did - but I think that this was due to the supply plant at Neepsend having problems - meaning that my freezer defrosted whilst colleagues at work were untroubled :-/