LONG TERM improvements to Northern

[Halish Railway]

In light of several developments, including TRU, the Northumberland line reopening and TfN’s plan to begin the process of acquiring new rolling stock for Northern around 2023, I’ve began this thread to talk about how Northern can be improved over the course of the next 20 or so years.

I’ll divide this into several categories;
- Service provision
- Rolling stock
- Necessary infrastructure improvements
- Miscellaneous e.g. ticketing
- Aspirational / Borderline fantasy

Service provision (In addition to the 2016 Arriva aspirations):
- A return to pre-COVID/MRTF frequencies
- The planned 4tph Leeds to Harrogate should also call at Headingley & Burley Park
- An additional 1tph Preston to Leeds also calling at Bamber Bridge, Church & Oswaldtwsistle, Rose Grove & all stations beyond there. This could be an extension of the existing Halifax to Hull so that it doesn’t take up any more paths around Leeds & Bradford Interchange.
- 1tph Huddersfield to Wigan via Calder Valley to create 2tph between Brighouse & Wigan with the same stopping pattern
- Accelerate the Chester to Leeds service to have the same stopping pattern as the Leeds to Manchester Victoria service on the opposite side of the hour. This will also provide Walsden with 2tph in each direction.
- 1tph Barnsley to York via Castleford
- 1tph semi-fast Huddersfield to Sheffield via a reopened Horbury curve
- Extend the Huddersfield to Castleford service to Leeds
- Accelerate the Sheffield to Leeds stopping service to run non-stop from Normanton to Leeds
- Accelerate the Blackburn to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden service to call only at Rochdale beyond Todmorden.
- Accelerate Leeds to Wigan to run non-stop between Leeds & Dewsbury.
- Accelerate Skipton to Leeds to run non-stop from Keighley to Shipley.
- 2tph from Keighley to Leeds, calling at all stations apart from Kirkstall Forge
- 1tph York to Sunderland (Will probably have to use the slow lines from York to Thirsk)
- 2tph Newcastle to Ashington via Blyth
- 2tph Newcastle to Morpeth, later extended to Ashington with a stop at Pegswood.
- Re-route the Southport to Castlefield service via Golborne
- 2tph all stations vice Clifton Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (once electrified)
- 2tph all stations vice Ardwick Manchester Piccadilly to Stalybridge.
- Accelerate the Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield / Rose Hill Marple service to run non-stop from Piccadilly to Guide Bridge.
- 2tph ALL stations vice Ardwick Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills Central.
- Accelerate the Hope Valley stopper to run non-stop from Piccadilly to Romiley.
- 2tph from Sheffield to Nottingham, also calling at the reopened Dore MML platforms.
- 1tph Manchester Airport to Windermere/Barrow, dividing at Lancaster.
- Extend all Cumbrian coast services to Lancaster.
- 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe

Rolling stock:
- At least three coach trains on all services into Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds & Newcastle.
- Any more pure EMUs should be 331s or a future variant for more homogeneity.
- Look into the possibility of using Batteries on services that spend just a few miles away from electrification.
- Stadler Flirts, ideally with a door arrangement like that of TfW rather than GA to replace Class 150, 155, 156 & 769 on stopping services and longer distance services that spend at least half of their time beneath the wires.
- Keep some 158s for express passenger trains and rural services e.g. Leeds to Carlisle/Morecambe, Tyne & Tees valley services, Cumbrian Coast (if there’s any way to clear them), Yorkshire Coast & York to Scarborough that would have happened if it weren’t for COVID.
- Use 170s only on services with long gaps between stations where they can routinely get into direct drive.
- Use 195s on services where there is the lowest percentage of electrification.

Infrastructure (That hasn’t already been announced/confirmed):
- Castlefield corridor upgrade (Well… Obviously!)
- Power supply upgrades (BOO… boring)
- Changes to signalling and level crossings to facilitate increased frequencies
- A turnback at Keighley.
- Platforms for the Hallam line platforms at Leeds, maybe this could go where the HS2 platforms were supposed to go.
- Budget (Or half-a***d depending on your viewpoint) electrification projects where tunnels / discrete areas aren’t electrified and trains fitted with small battery packs, similar to what is being done in the Welsh Valleys, ideally on routes with self-contained service. The two that I can think of being the Harrogate loop and Bolton to Clitheroe, as well as Miles platting to Rochdale which is required to run these services but would most likely fall into a greater Calder Valley scheme.
- Some form of grade-separation at Salford Crescent to enable parallel movements without needing trains travelling in the other direction to wait outside the station, although I’m not sure if this is entirely possible.
- Segregation of Harrogate loop from ECML.

Miscellaneous:
- PAYG tickets in PTE areas with the same fairs system as Metrolink/TfL

Aspirational / Borderline fantasy:
- Full electrification of the Calder Valley line, Hope Valley line, MML to Doncaster & South Kirkby Jn & Hallam line.
- Reopen the Skipton to Colne line to fully another, preferably electrified Transpennine route.
- Put ECML trains passing Doncaster without stopping into a tunnel to allow more east-west traffic.
- 4 track Apperley Jn to Armley Jn & 6-track Armley Jn to Leeds.
- 4 track Dore to Meadowhall, with Grade separated junctions at Dore & Meadowhall.
- Segregate arrivals into Leeds from Wakefield Westgate & Bradford Interchange.

Let me what you think of my ideas and add your own.

 

[Halifaxlad]

- 1tph Huddersfield to Wigan via Calder Valley to create 2tph between Brighouse & Wigan with the same stopping pattern

It would be great for the Calder Valley to get a direct service to Huddersfield!

- 1tph semi-fast Huddersfield to Sheffield via a reopened Horbury curve

Very much like this idea!

- Any more pure EMUs should be 331s or a future variant for more homogeneity.

Any more units really need to be a new class I get what your saying and I agree with it in principle but the 195s & 331s don't have level boarding capability! We really shouldn't be building new units without it!

 

[swt_passenger]

…2tph Newcastle to Morpeth, “later extended to Ashington with a stop at Pegswood.”

But there’s no existing railway…

 

[jackot]

In light of several developments, including TRU, the Northumberland line reopening and TfN’s plan to begin the process of acquiring new rolling stock for Northern around 2023, I’ve began this thread to talk about how Northern can be improved over the course of the next 20 or so years.

I’ll divide this into several categories;
- Service provision
- Rolling stock
- Necessary infrastructure improvements
- Miscellaneous e.g. ticketing
- Aspirational / Borderline fantasy

Service provision (In addition to the 2016 Arriva aspirations):
- A return to pre-COVID/MRTF frequencies
- The planned 4tph Leeds to Harrogate should also call at Headingley & Burley Park
- An additional 1tph Preston to Leeds also calling at Bamber Bridge, Church & Oswaldtwsistle, Rose Grove & all stations beyond there. This could be an extension of the existing Halifax to Hull so that it doesn’t take up any more paths around Leeds & Bradford Interchange.
- 1tph Huddersfield to Wigan via Calder Valley to create 2tph between Brighouse & Wigan with the same stopping pattern
- Accelerate the Chester to Leeds service to have the same stopping pattern as the Leeds to Manchester Victoria service on the opposite side of the hour. This will also provide Walsden with 2tph in each direction.
- 1tph Barnsley to York via Castleford
- 1tph semi-fast Huddersfield to Sheffield via a reopened Horbury curve
- Extend the Huddersfield to Castleford service to Leeds
- Accelerate the Sheffield to Leeds stopping service to run non-stop from Normanton to Leeds
- Accelerate the Blackburn to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden service to call only at Rochdale beyond Todmorden.
- Accelerate Leeds to Wigan to run non-stop between Leeds & Dewsbury.
- Accelerate Skipton to Leeds to run non-stop from Keighley to Shipley.
- 2tph from Keighley to Leeds, calling at all stations apart from Kirkstall Forge
- 1tph York to Sunderland (Will probably have to use the slow lines from York to Thirsk)
- 2tph Newcastle to Ashington via Blyth
- 2tph Newcastle to Morpeth, later extended to Ashington with a stop at Pegswood.
- Re-route the Southport to Castlefield service via Golborne
- 2tph all stations vice Clifton Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (once electrified)
- 2tph all stations vice Ardwick Manchester Piccadilly to Stalybridge.
- Accelerate the Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield / Rose Hill Marple service to run non-stop from Piccadilly to Guide Bridge.
- 2tph ALL stations vice Ardwick Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills Central.
- Accelerate the Hope Valley stopper to run non-stop from Piccadilly to Romiley.
- 2tph from Sheffield to Nottingham, also calling at the reopened Dore MML platforms.
- 1tph Manchester Airport to Windermere/Barrow, dividing at Lancaster.
- Extend all Cumbrian coast services to Lancaster.
- 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe

Rolling stock:
- At least three coach trains on all services into Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds & Newcastle.
- Any more pure EMUs should be 331s or a future variant for more homogeneity.
- Look into the possibility of using Batteries on services that spend just a few miles away from electrification.
- Stadler Flirts, ideally with a door arrangement like that of TfW rather than GA to replace Class 150, 155, 156 & 769 on stopping services and longer distance services that spend at least half of their time beneath the wires.
- Keep some 158s for express passenger trains and rural services e.g. Leeds to Carlisle/Morecambe, Tyne & Tees valley services, Cumbrian Coast (if there’s any way to clear them), Yorkshire Coast & York to Scarborough that would have happened if it weren’t for COVID.
- Use 170s only on services with long gaps between stations where they can routinely get into direct drive.
- Use 195s on services where there is the lowest percentage of electrification.

Infrastructure (That hasn’t already been announced/confirmed):
- Castlefield corridor upgrade (Well… Obviously!)
- Power supply upgrades (BOO… boring)
- Changes to signalling and level crossings to facilitate increased frequencies
- A turnback at Keighley.
- Platforms for the Hallam line platforms at Leeds, maybe this could go where the HS2 platforms were supposed to go.
- Budget (Or half-a***d depending on your viewpoint) electrification projects where tunnels / discrete areas aren’t electrified and trains fitted with small battery packs, similar to what is being done in the Welsh Valleys, ideally on routes with self-contained service. The two that I can think of being the Harrogate loop and Bolton to Clitheroe, as well as Miles platting to Rochdale which is required to run these services but would most likely fall into a greater Calder Valley scheme.
- Some form of grade-separation at Salford Crescent to enable parallel movements without needing trains travelling in the other direction to wait outside the station, although I’m not sure if this is entirely possible.
- Segregation of Harrogate loop from ECML.

Miscellaneous:
- PAYG tickets in PTE areas with the same fairs system as Metrolink/TfL

Aspirational / Borderline fantasy:
- Full electrification of the Calder Valley line, Hope Valley line, MML to Doncaster & South Kirkby Jn & Hallam line.
- Reopen the Skipton to Colne line to fully another, preferably electrified Transpennine route.
- Put ECML trains passing Doncaster without stopping into a tunnel to allow more east-west traffic.
- 4 track Apperley Jn to Armley Jn & 6-track Armley Jn to Leeds.
- 4 track Dore to Meadowhall, with Grade separated junctions at Dore & Meadowhall.
- Segregate arrivals into Leeds from Wakefield Westgate & Bradford Interchange.

Let me what you think of my ideas and add your own.

Many good ideas here from what I can see. I am not at all local to where Northern operates, and am definitely not a railway expert in the slightest, but hopefully others can comment on your plans.

However, I can’t help but think how expensive a full fleet of FLIRTS to replace sprinters (bar the 158’s) would be, and whether they are the right choice. However, they do give flexibility for the engine modules to be replaced with batteries or removed entirely one day. There really seems to be a under-served market for Bi-Mode commuter and regional stock, with Stadler being the only option.

 

[PTR 444]

I’m interested in the suggestion of rerouting the Manchester - Southport service via Golborne. While it would mean Sandgrounders lose their direct link to Bolton, it makes sense if Atherton gets converted to Metrolink, Golborne station reopens with demands for trains to Manchester and Sandgrounders still want their direct link to Oxford Road without messing up paths through Ordsall Lane.

Kills three birds with one stone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m interested in the suggestion of rerouting the Manchester - Southport service via Golborne. While it would mean Southsiders lose their direct link to Bolton, it makes sense if Atherton gets converted to Metrolink, Golborne demands trains to Manchester and Southsiders still want their direct link to Oxford Road without messing up paths through Ordsall Lane.

Kills three birds with one stone.

Sandgrounders, you mean?

As Southport de facto has two separate hourly services rather than a proper Takt, rerouting one of them that way probably does make some sense. Because of its awkward location I don't think Golborne can really hope for more than hourly to Manchester, though I do still think a Crewe to Carlisle local as proposed by FNW would be valuable and that could be a second train to Wigan.

 

[JonathanH]

As Southport de facto has two separate hourly services rather than a proper Takt, rerouting one of them that way probably does make some sense.

Between Wigan and Southport, isn't the idea that one calls at the smallest stations and the other doesn't? How does a 'proper takt' overcome that problem?

The pathing of the northbound service from Golborne Junction to Wigan Wallgate would be horrendous, particularly if the HS2 trains use the classic route north of Crewe.

 

[PTR 444]

Sandgrounders, you mean?

As Southport de facto has two separate hourly services rather than a proper Takt, rerouting one of them that way probably does make some sense. Because of its awkward location I don't think Golborne can really hope for more than hourly to Manchester, though I do still think a Crewe to Carlisle local as proposed by FNW would be valuable and that could be a second train to Wigan.

I’m in the pro-takt camp so I think both Southport trains per hour should go to the same Manchester terminal, along with other Northern local services. For Sandgrounders, this should either be 2tph to Victoria via Bolton, 2tph to Oxford Road via Bolton or 2tph to Oxford Road via Golborne

 

[JonathanH]

2tph to Oxford Road via Golborne

...would need a complete rethink of the track layout south of Wigan and more capacity through Deansgate which I don't think will happen even in the long term. Is there a plan to do anything here as part of the IRP?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m in the pro-takt camp so I think both Southport trains per hour should go to the same Manchester terminal, along with other Northern local services. For Sandgrounders, this should either be 2tph to Victoria via Bolton, 2tph to Oxford Road via Bolton or 2tph to Oxford Road via Golborne

I think the debate on central Manchester stations has been had and all people with a view have it entrenched, so another debate on that is about as useful as one on DOO. But if they both have to go the same way (which they didn't for years) it would have to be Bolton.

Golborne is a nuisance. I'm genuinely unsure of the best way to serve it other than a Crewe to Carlisle stopper. In a way it should perhaps not be built at all because it will get in the way so badly. Extending the Leigh busway services out to do a loop of Golborne instead would probably be a more effective way to solve its transport needs if those are indeed mostly towards Manchester, that or its own express bus up the East Lancs.

Only other sensible option I can see if it can be pathed is the hourly Liverpool to Blackpool running that way, with the stoppers via St. Helens, but that would not give a Manchester service.

 

[Starmill]

I’m in the pro-takt camp so I think both Southport trains per hour should go to the same Manchester terminal, along with other Northern local services. For Sandgrounders, this should either be 2tph to Victoria via Bolton, 2tph to Oxford Road via Bolton or 2tph to Oxford Road via Golborne

What would be wrong with half-hourly Southport to Stalybridge via Bolton and Manchester Victoria? You could put Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane in one, and Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley in the other to balance it out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2021 ==

Golborne is a nuisance. I'm genuinely unsure of the best way to serve it other than a Crewe to Carlisle stopper. In a way it should perhaps not be built at all because it will get in the way so badly. Extending the Leigh busway services out to do a loop of Golborne instead would probably be a more effective way to solve its transport needs if those are indeed mostly towards Manchester, that or its own express bus up the East Lancs.

1tph Hazel Grove to Wigan North Western via Eccles could serve it pretty easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would be wrong with half-hourly Southport to Stalybridge via Bolton and Manchester Victoria? You could put Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane in one, and Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley in the other to balance it out.

Not an awful lot if the connections at either Bolton or Salford Crescent towards/from Picc are good both ways, for the full period of service. That is a key part of a Takt.

If Bolton to Picc is to be 4tph at even intervals, it essentially needs to slot in the middle between two of those to give a 7/8 minute wait and bidirectional interchange.

1tph Hazel Grove to Wigan North Western via Eccles could serve it pretty easily.

Can that be pathed? It could go from Oxford Road instead of the Southport, I suppose.

 

[Starmill]

Can that be pathed? It could go from Oxford Road instead of the Southport, I suppose.

Not unless the above suggestion about Southport were opted for, yes.

 

[Killingworth]

In light of several developments, including TRU, the Northumberland line reopening and TfN’s plan to begin the process of acquiring new rolling stock for Northern around 2023, I’ve began this thread to talk about how Northern can be improved over the course of the next 20 or so years.

I’ll divide this into several categories;
- Service provision
- Rolling stock
- Necessary infrastructure improvements
- Miscellaneous e.g. ticketing
- Aspirational / Borderline fantasy

Service provision (In addition to the 2016 Arriva aspirations):
- A return to pre-COVID/MRTF frequencies
- The planned 4tph Leeds to Harrogate should also call at Headingley & Burley Park
- An additional 1tph Preston to Leeds also calling at Bamber Bridge, Church & Oswaldtwsistle, Rose Grove & all stations beyond there. This could be an extension of the existing Halifax to Hull so that it doesn’t take up any more paths around Leeds & Bradford Interchange.
- 1tph Huddersfield to Wigan via Calder Valley to create 2tph between Brighouse & Wigan with the same stopping pattern
- Accelerate the Chester to Leeds service to have the same stopping pattern as the Leeds to Manchester Victoria service on the opposite side of the hour. This will also provide Walsden with 2tph in each direction.
- 1tph Barnsley to York via Castleford
- 1tph semi-fast Huddersfield to Sheffield via a reopened Horbury curve
- Extend the Huddersfield to Castleford service to Leeds
- Accelerate the Sheffield to Leeds stopping service to run non-stop from Normanton to Leeds
- Accelerate the Blackburn to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden service to call only at Rochdale beyond Todmorden.
- Accelerate Leeds to Wigan to run non-stop between Leeds & Dewsbury.
- Accelerate Skipton to Leeds to run non-stop from Keighley to Shipley.
- 2tph from Keighley to Leeds, calling at all stations apart from Kirkstall Forge
- 1tph York to Sunderland (Will probably have to use the slow lines from York to Thirsk)
- 2tph Newcastle to Ashington via Blyth
- 2tph Newcastle to Morpeth, later extended to Ashington with a stop at Pegswood.
- Re-route the Southport to Castlefield service via Golborne
- 2tph all stations vice Clifton Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (once electrified)
- 2tph all stations vice Ardwick Manchester Piccadilly to Stalybridge.
- Accelerate the Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield / Rose Hill Marple service to run non-stop from Piccadilly to Guide Bridge.
- 2tph ALL stations vice Ardwick Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills Central.
- Accelerate the Hope Valley stopper to run non-stop from Piccadilly to Romiley.
- 2tph from Sheffield to Nottingham, also calling at the reopened Dore MML platforms.
- 1tph Manchester Airport to Windermere/Barrow, dividing at Lancaster.
- Extend all Cumbrian coast services to Lancaster.
- 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe

Rolling stock:
- At least three coach trains on all services into Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds & Newcastle.
- Any more pure EMUs should be 331s or a future variant for more homogeneity.
- Look into the possibility of using Batteries on services that spend just a few miles away from electrification.
- Stadler Flirts, ideally with a door arrangement like that of TfW rather than GA to replace Class 150, 155, 156 & 769 on stopping services and longer distance services that spend at least half of their time beneath the wires.
- Keep some 158s for express passenger trains and rural services e.g. Leeds to Carlisle/Morecambe, Tyne & Tees valley services, Cumbrian Coast (if there’s any way to clear them), Yorkshire Coast & York to Scarborough that would have happened if it weren’t for COVID.
- Use 170s only on services with long gaps between stations where they can routinely get into direct drive.
- Use 195s on services where there is the lowest percentage of electrification.

Infrastructure (That hasn’t already been announced/confirmed):
- Castlefield corridor upgrade (Well… Obviously!)
- Power supply upgrades (BOO… boring)
- Changes to signalling and level crossings to facilitate increased frequencies
- A turnback at Keighley.
- Platforms for the Hallam line platforms at Leeds, maybe this could go where the HS2 platforms were supposed to go.
- Budget (Or half-a***d depending on your viewpoint) electrification projects where tunnels / discrete areas aren’t electrified and trains fitted with small battery packs, similar to what is being done in the Welsh Valleys, ideally on routes with self-contained service. The two that I can think of being the Harrogate loop and Bolton to Clitheroe, as well as Miles platting to Rochdale which is required to run these services but would most likely fall into a greater Calder Valley scheme.
- Some form of grade-separation at Salford Crescent to enable parallel movements without needing trains travelling in the other direction to wait outside the station, although I’m not sure if this is entirely possible.
- Segregation of Harrogate loop from ECML.

Miscellaneous:
- PAYG tickets in PTE areas with the same fairs system as Metrolink/TfL

Aspirational / Borderline fantasy:
- Full electrification of the Calder Valley line, Hope Valley line, MML to Doncaster & South Kirkby Jn & Hallam line.
- Reopen the Skipton to Colne line to fully another, preferably electrified Transpennine route.
- Put ECML trains passing Doncaster without stopping into a tunnel to allow more east-west traffic.
- 4 track Apperley Jn to Armley Jn & 6-track Armley Jn to Leeds.
- 4 track Dore to Meadowhall, with Grade separated junctions at Dore & Meadowhall.
- Segregate arrivals into Leeds from Wakefield Westgate & Bradford Interchange.

Let me what you think of my ideas and add your own.

I must come back in 30 years to see how they got on with grade separated 4 tracking from Dore to Meadowhall, starting from the restored 4 platforms at Dore which might come before then. Extending the existing Piccadilly - New Mills to Sheffield to give Northern 2 tph between the 2 cities could happen within 5 years, calling pattern debatable. Back in 1894 when the route was first opened most through trains stopped at Dore and Marple.

Halish Railway's initial post could spin off into a score of interesting threads, some of which probably already exist.

 

[HST43257]

I think the debate on central Manchester stations has been had and all people with a view have it entrenched, so another debate on that is about as useful as one on DOO. But if they both have to go the same way (which they didn't for years) it would have to be Bolton.

Golborne is a nuisance. I'm genuinely unsure of the best way to serve it other than a Crewe to Carlisle stopper. In a way it should perhaps not be built at all because it will get in the way so badly. Extending the Leigh busway services out to do a loop of Golborne instead would probably be a more effective way to solve its transport needs if those are indeed mostly towards Manchester, that or its own express bus up the East Lancs.

Only other sensible option I can see if it can be pathed is the hourly Liverpool to Blackpool running that way, with the stoppers via St. Helens, but that would not give a Manchester service.

I disagree with Golborne station, for the reasons that it means slowing and/or adding services on a busy route, and I don’t believe it’s got a good enough market.

If it has to be served well, I wonder about something like this for Golborne:

1tph Cumbria to Manchester Airport (all day)
1tph Wigan NW to Crewe via NLW all stopper (all day)
1tph Wigan NW to Liverpool semi fast (peak only)

 

[Purple Orange]

Hmmm, what would I do with Northern in the long term?

1. A uniform fleet of EMUs and Bi-modes should be order of the day.
2. Northern is also dependent upon infrastructure investment that is for other services, so I would prepare developing networks centred on our cities following the removal of other services from the classic network.

 

[HST43257]

Whilst I agree with standardisation, I also disagree with needless ridding of EMUs. 319s should be replaced by WMR 323s but the 323s and 333s shouldn’t be replaced for a bit imo.

 

[Purple Orange]

Whilst I agree with standardisation, I also disagree with needless ridding of EMUs. 319s should be replaced by WMR 323s but the 323s and 333s shouldn’t be replaced for a bit imo.

Is that not a short term issue? The 323s will soon be 30 years old and how long should they really be used for? I don’t think the rail industry should keep hold of a ‘make-do-and-mend’ attitude on this issue if there happens to be a better cost and operating model with more efficient trains.

 

[Bigman]

I would like to see the current Hull – Halifax extended to Manchester, but run fast from Halifax. I would also change the existing Leeds – Dewsbury – Brighouse – Manchester stopper to operate to Preston instead to give Leeds 2 trains an hour to Burnley, Blackburn and Preston. Walsden could be served by the current stopper service that currently misses it out.

 

[Neptune]

I would like to see the current Hull – Halifax extended to Manchester, but run fast from Halifax. I would also change the existing Leeds – Dewsbury – Brighouse – Manchester stopper to operate to Preston instead to give Leeds 2 trains an hour to Burnley, Blackburn and Preston. Walsden could be served by the current stopper service that currently misses it out.

It would be better the other way around. Brighouse would lose its link to Manchester which is a reasonable market both peak and off peak. Plus extending the Hull - Halifax service to Blackburn or Preston would give a proper clock face half hourly service.

 

[Bigman]

It would be better the other way around. Brighouse would lose its link to Manchester which is a reasonable market both peak and off peak. Plus extending the Hull - Halifax service to Blackburn or Preston would give a proper clock face half hourly service.

..and then perhaps extend it to either Barrow or Windermere.

 

[Neptune]

..and then perhaps extend it to either Barrow or Windermere.

You need paths and a substantial amount of additional trains for that. Preston is a very good connecting station so no need to start losing resilience to the service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The irony of saying a homogeneous fleet would be good (I agree) and then suggesting a load of Stadler FLIRTS to replace Sprinters where a 195 or 331 would be perfect. Obviously I know they will need to be bi-mode or they won’t be approved, but that’s not hard. Then it really would be a homogeneous fleet. Knock off the 170s, 323s and 333s too and you’ve got yourself a standard fleet of 2, 3 and 4 car CAFs.

 

[HSTEd]

The irony of saying a homogeneous fleet would be good (I agree) and then suggesting a load of Stadler FLIRTS to replace Sprinters where a 195 or 331 would be perfect. Obviously I know they will need to be bi-mode or they won’t be approved, but that’s not hard. Then it really would be a homogeneous fleet. Knock off the 170s, 323s and 333s too and you’ve got yourself a standard fleet of 2, 3 and 4 car CAFs.

It's not really a uniform fleet unless you replace all the stock and make it actually uniform.

Which means existing stock is irrelevant since you can only retain one class at most - and there are no practical for mass production electrodiesels on Northern now.

The best suited electrodiesel platform available are the FLIRTs - given their extremely good diesel performance they would dramatically accelerate the stoppers and may allow timetable rationalisation.

 

[Neptune]

The best suited electrodiesel platform available are the FLIRTs - given their extremely good diesel performance they would dramatically accelerate the stoppers and may allow timetable rationalisation.

And need refuelling more often

 

[HSTEd]

And need refuelling more often

Requiring more refueling operations is a small price if it improves journey times or allows semi fast trains to be dispensed with.

 

[Gareth]

On a different tack: I think Northern could do with splitting up again. I was never convinced the merger of the two halves was necessary in the first place.

I'm hoping once GBR comes in, we can have TER-style regional networks overseen by a joint board of relevant local governments, who can have some influence over funding and service specification.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think the debate on central Manchester stations has been had and all people with a view have it entrenched, so another debate on that is about as useful as one on DOO. But if they both have to go the same way (which they didn't for years) it would have to be Bolton.

Golborne is a nuisance. I'm genuinely unsure of the best way to serve it other than a Crewe to Carlisle stopper. In a way it should perhaps not be built at all because it will get in the way so badly. Extending the Leigh busway services out to do a loop of Golborne instead would probably be a more effective way to solve its transport needs if those are indeed mostly towards Manchester, that or its own express bus up the East Lancs.

Only other sensible option I can see if it can be pathed is the hourly Liverpool to Blackpool running that way, with the stoppers via St. Helens, but that would not give a Manchester service.

Hands off our fast trains at St. Helens Central !!!!

 

[PTR 444]

Hands off our fast trains at St. Helens Central !!!!

St Helens Central only has 1 fast train per hour so there’s not much to lose really. Even if Liverpool - Blackpool got diverted via Golborne, there should still be room to add another Liverpool - Wigan fast running via St Helens.

 

[Bevan Price]

St Helens Central only has 1 fast train per hour so there’s not much to lose really. Even if Liverpool - Blackpool got diverted via Golborne, there should still be room to add another Liverpool - Wigan fast running via St Helens.

St. Helens is much bigger than Golborne, and has a poor service for a town of its size - it needs to be improved (post-Covid), not made worse.