Long layover times at distant termini

[allaction]

Are the regular layovers at Pembroke Dock the longest at any distant termini (in this case, without permanent stabling and staffing facilities) on the network?

Apart from the first and last services of the day, which turn around pretty quickly, the wait between arrival and departure on the return service is an average of 50 minutes.

I realise that this situation occurs here in order to maintain a roughly two hours service pattern, but is there a more efficient way of running this service, is it replicated anywhere else, and what do the crews find to do in Pembroke Dock (it’s hardly Vegas, baby)?

 

[bunnahabhain]

I suppose you could include the Norwich end of EMTs Liverpool to Norwich services. They usually arrive in Norwich approx xx08 and depart approx xx57 in the normal service pattern (times from the WTT). Primarily this does enable Nottingham based crews to have a full PNB which enables them to do something directly before or after which is the case for most Norwich turns from Nottingham.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The turnarounds on the Kyle, Wick and Mallaig lines are very generous, often in excess of two hours. I do have to wonder what the staff do, after all, having done the there-and-back trip on the same day for a number of them, it's too short to go anywhere meaningful but long enough that it gets a bit boring sitting around in the pub.

 

[swt_passenger]

Mon-Sat most Southampton to Portsmouth trains have a 54 or 55 min turnround at Portsmouth and Southsea. The buffer end of the low level bay platform they use is almost continually occupied during most of the day, with incoming trains often waiting at the signal for the previous occupant to depart...

I know it’s not “distant” as such, but the timings were presumably just too tight to allow for a two train operation, but three means a quite long break between runs.

 

[Esker-pades]

The turnarounds on the Kyle, Wick and Mallaig lines are very generous, often in excess of two hours. I do have to wonder what the staff do, after all, having done the there-and-back trip on the same day for a number of them, it's too short to go anywhere meaningful but long enough that it gets a bit boring sitting around in the pub.

The turnaround times at Wick are only about an hour (arr 11:31, dep 12:34 - although I think those are both covered by different Wick crews; and 14:56 to 16:00 - same Inverness crew).

As for Kyle:
11:30 to 12:08 (I think that's the same Inverness crew)
13:35 to 13:46 (I think that's Different Kyle crews)
16:12 to 17:13 (I think that's the same Inverness crew)

Mallaig:
09:53 to 10:10 (Same Fort William crew?)
13:34 to 16:05 (Absolutely no idea)
17:43 to 18:15 (Same crew, not sure where from)

I'm not in the railways, so these are based off my observations and logic. There'll probably be someone along to explain exactly how much I've messed up.

 

[Statto]

The WMT/LNWR Euston-Crewe via Trent Valley seem to have long layover at Euston, service arrives in Euston xx50, departs xx46, seems the Crewe service doesn't form another service at Euston either.

 

[700007]

Greater Anglia Braintree services on a Saturday don't interwork with anything else (also probably why you oddly see 317s working this on Saturdays). They arrive into London Liverpool Street at xx:00 I believe and then get a lovely 48 minute break until the xx:48 departure time.

 

[edwin_m]

I realise that this situation occurs here in order to maintain a roughly two hours service pattern, but is there a more efficient way of running this service, is it replicated anywhere else, and what do the crews find to do in Pembroke Dock (it’s hardly Vegas, baby)?

The only passing loop on the branch is at Tenby, and the Pembroke Dock tunaround time is so long because trains must meet at that loop.

It's almost, but not quite, possible to get from Whitland to Pembroke Dock and back in two hours with a workable turnaround time. This could probably be achieved with some modest speed improvements (there was talk of automatic a couple of stop-and-proceed level crossings) and a different token arrangement at Whitland (the tokens are currently handed out and back at the signal box east of the station so the next train can't be waiting in the station for the previous one to come off the branch). This would make the out-and-back times for Pembroke Dock much more similar to those for Milford Haven and Fishguard, probably allowing a more passenger-friendly as well as a more efficient timetable.

I once had the misfortune to spend a night in the Travelodge in Pembroke Dock. The only think to do in the evening was a pub with some kind of boxing tournament going on, which seemed in imminent danger of involving the audience.

 

[xotGD]

I'll be flippant and say that Caledonian Sleeper have long layovers at their termini.

 

[Ianno87]

CrossCountry have typically 47 minutes at Stansted Airport most hours, partly to allow a break for the crew (which must be taken on the unit, I believe, as they have no facilities of their own there, the closest crew base being Cambridge)

 

[221129]

Approx 45 mins at Plymouth for XC services and between 45-60 mins at Edinburgh and Glasgow for XC

 

[306024]

Greater Anglia Braintree services on a Saturday don't interwork with anything else (also probably why you oddly see 317s working this on Saturdays). They arrive into London Liverpool Street at xx:00 I believe and then get a lovely 48 minute break until the xx:48 departure time.

They do mix with the Southend service in the base plan (see RTT for a future Saturday in September for example). Just that there haven’t been many Saturday Southend services recently due to overhead line work on the Southend branch which does leave the Braintree service ‘isolated’. With the Southend based 321s trapped and not too many 321s spare at Ilford on a Saturday 317s with Ilford drivers is a logical substitute.

 

[cle]

There are of course reasons for a lot of these (crew rest/changes, pathing returns etc) - but some will just be historical or never scrutinized... given that there is such a chronic stock shortage nationally, a wider study into layovers might be useful to get more usage out of our units. Even modest improvements here and there could enable longer or more services across the country.

Seems worthwhile to at least investigate. Timetabling is of course a big undertaking across TOCs, regions and so on. Perhaps this is best begun in a relatively more self-contained environment, eg in Scotland or Wales/SW.

 

[221129]

There are of course reasons for a lot of these (crew rest/changes, pathing returns etc) - but some will just be historical or never scrutinized... given that there is such a chronic stock shortage nationally, a wider study into layovers might be useful to get more usage out of our units. Even modest improvements here and there could enable longer or more services across the country.

Seems worthwhile to at least investigate. Timetabling is of course a big undertaking across TOCs, regions and so on. Perhaps this is best begun in a relatively more self-contained environment, eg in Scotland or Wales/SW.

It is looked at in depth...

 

[Mag_seven]

I'll be flippant and say that Caledonian Sleeper have long layovers at their termini.

And the GWR Sleeper at Penzance.

 

[Ianno87]

There are of course reasons for a lot of these (crew rest/changes, pathing returns etc) - but some will just be historical or never scrutinized... given that there is such a chronic stock shortage nationally, a wider study into layovers might be useful to get more usage out of our units. Even modest improvements here and there could enable longer or more services across the country.

Seems worthwhile to at least investigate. Timetabling is of course a big undertaking across TOCs, regions and so on. Perhaps this is best begun in a relatively more self-contained environment, eg in Scotland or Wales/SW.

TOCs tend to be pretty hot on their resource use - if there's a way to do it more efficiently whilst meeting their Train Service Requirements, they'll usually have already found it.

 

[30907]

Mallaig:
13:34 to 16:05 (Absolutely no idea)

Crew change last September.

 

[306024]

TOCs tend to be pretty hot on their resource use - if there's a way to do it more efficiently whilst meeting their Train Service Requirements, they'll usually have already found it.

Yep. In fact there have been instances of being too hot. Tight turnarounds all day spell trouble at the first hint of disruption.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yep. In fact there have been instances of being too hot. Tight turnarounds all day spell trouble at the first hint of disruption.

It's a very hard balancing act between allowing enough time for there to be a robust timetable, but not too much time so that the terminus station has enough platform flexibility.

 

[MK Rail Rover]

Are the regular layovers at Pembroke Dock the longest at any distant termini (in this case, without permanent stabling and staffing facilities) on the network?

Apart from the first and last services of the day, which turn around pretty quickly, the wait between arrival and departure on the return service is an average of 50 minutes.

I realise that this situation occurs here in order to maintain a roughly two hours service pattern, but is there a more efficient way of running this service, is it replicated anywhere else, and what do the crews find to do in Pembroke Dock (it’s hardly Vegas, baby)?

The 10.41 from Inverness to Wick stays for over an hour before setting off back

 

[Ianno87]

I suppose you could include the Norwich end of EMTs Liverpool to Norwich services. They usually arrive in Norwich approx xx08 and depart approx xx57 in the normal service pattern (times from the WTT). Primarily this does enable Nottingham based crews to have a full PNB which enables them to do something directly before or after which is the case for most Norwich turns from Nottingham.

I presume there were less generous turnround times at Norwich before the Cambridge-Norwich service was introduced, so the Liverpools had to more regularly stop at the likes of Brandon and Wymondham.

 

[nw1]

Mon-Sat most Southampton to Portsmouth trains have a 54 or 55 min turnround at Portsmouth and Southsea. The buffer end of the low level bay platform they use is almost continually occupied during most of the day, with incoming trains often waiting at the signal for the previous occupant to depart...

I know it’s not “distant” as such, but the timings were presumably just too tight to allow for a two train operation, but three means a quite long break between runs.

I know in the old days (before the 2004 rewrite, I think) these services used to interwork with the London to Portsmouth via Eastleigh which meant the service was very efficiently worked with 20 min or so turnarounds at Portsmouth Harbour - ISTR someone suggesting on this forum some time ago that it was to stop delays in the Waterloo area spreading onto the Solent locals.

Presumably therefore, the Waterloo Portsmouth via Eastleigh also have a long turnaround at Portsmouth Harbour?

 

[nw1]

Approx 45 mins at Plymouth for XC services and between 45-60 mins at Edinburgh and Glasgow for XC

For long distance services long turn rounds of close to an hour make sense to me (same goes for Liverpool Norwich) as it allows space to recover from delays. Last thing you want is an XC with a 20 minute turnround - cue frequent terminations short of the destnation of the Southern "this train will terminate at Fareham" style if that happened...

 

[Adsy125]

The Weymouth fast service gets a 50 minute turnaround at Weymouth, while the semi fast gets only 20 which seems strange to me.

 

[dk1]

I presume there were less generous turnround times at Norwich before the Cambridge-Norwich service was introduced, so the Liverpools had to more regularly stop at the likes of Brandon and Wymondham.

Not really as it was crewed very differently then thanks to Cambridge being a Central Trains Depot. There where several crew changes at Ely also.

 

[dk1]

I suppose you could include the Norwich end of EMTs Liverpool to Norwich services. They usually arrive in Norwich approx xx08 and depart approx xx57 in the normal service pattern (times from the WTT). Primarily this does enable Nottingham based crews to have a full PNB which enables them to do something directly before or after which is the case for most Norwich turns from Nottingham.

There are also several instances where Norwich crews work Nottingham crew arrivals out of Norwich so not that straight forward.

 

[CC 72100]

The Weymouth fast service gets a 50 minute turnaround at Weymouth, while the semi fast gets only 20 which seems strange to me.

And further to SWR at Weymouth, GWR at Weymouth can vary from 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes or a whole hour!

 

[Marton]

Yep. In fact there have been instances of being too hot. Tight turnarounds all day spell trouble at the first hint of disruption.

I was told by a TPE guard that this meant many Man airport trains turning back at Victoria until the December timetable changes.

The fact that the toilets could only be managed at the Airport meant that trains to/from Middlesbrough had no facilities.

Whilst Economy and Efficiency are important Effectiveness is more important to the passenger.

For me a 3 hour train journey needs a loo to be effective.

 

[Parallel]

And further to SWR at Weymouth, GWR at Weymouth can vary from 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes or a whole hour!

Or in the Weymouth Wizard’s case, most of the day. The Heart of Wessex timetable going northbound is much better spaced with only one three hour gap between 17:30 and 20:21. Southbound services are all over the place though with several 1hr, 2hr and 3hr gaps...

 

[swt_passenger]

The Weymouth fast service gets a 50 minute turnaround at Weymouth, while the semi fast gets only 20 which seems strange to me.

Simply because they are only fast and semi fast calling patterns at that end of the route. Between Bournemouth and Waterloo they are both “fast” services (with slight differences) and basically run half an hour apart in both directions.