Long distance services - improvements?

[Eng274]

When HST's were first introduced they did sell keg beer from a tap; can't remember which brands, but probably something dreadful like Watneys Red Barrel and Harp.

I've only heard of Harp, is it still going? Never seen it in any pub for years.

If the range is similar to what's served in tins at the moment (Heineken, Strongbow, McEwan's Export, Boddingtons) then I'd be happy enough!

 

[LE Greys]

Pity about the no MkIIIs thing, I would have gone for 90s and MkIIIs replacing some HSTs on EC, allowing XC to increase their HST fleet and start doubling up Voyagers in places.

I'll stick with a few presentational touches.

1. Headboards for named trains (along with tail boards and destination boards for unnamed trains - can be done using a glorified destination display if need be). It helps the passenger identify the train when approaching and generally looks good.
2. Announce using the train's title as well as the destination
3. Replace all drink-branded cups (Tetley's Tea, etc) with TOC-branded cups
4. Consider reducing the size of cups and packets (who wants half a pint of tea?) and reduce the price accordingly
5. Abandon fancy multi-filling sandwiches and go to something simpler, ham, cheese and pickle, strawberry jam, etc. NO mayonnaise!

 

[Dennis]

Harp lager is still brewed; it was originally an Irish lager made by Guinness for English markets. Brewing was certainly subcontracted at the height of it's popularity and IIRC it was pumped up with nitrogen for a time (said to have given a smoother taste than the more traditional CO2).

Red Barrel (later just Watneys Red) was a very popular keg bitter in the late sixties - late seventies; incredibly bland fizz. One big advantage of keg beers like Red Barrel is the shelf life; being pastuerised and filtered it could sit for quite a while in a partially drained keg. Thankfully, Red Barrel is not available today.

 

[yorksrob]

Harp lager is still brewed; it was originally an Irish lager made by Guinness for English markets. Brewing was certainly subcontracted at the height of it's popularity and IIRC it was pumped up with nitrogen for a time (said to have given a smoother taste than the more traditional CO2).

Red Barrel (later just Watneys Red) was a very popular keg bitter in the late sixties - late seventies; incredibly bland fizz. One big advantage of keg beers like Red Barrel is the shelf life; being pastuerised and filtered it could sit for quite a while in a partially drained keg. Thankfully, Red Barrel is not available today.

Perhaps not those particular delights then

I'd still like to see the hand pull trolley though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Disco Coach

(a la snow trains Calais - Bourg St Maurice)

 

[TEW]

Announce using the train's title as well as the destination

For the named trains on FGW services they are announced on the CIS announcements, displayed on CIS boards and printed on the window labels. Some guards announce the name as well.

 

[tbtc]

I've only heard of Harp, is it still going? Never seen it in any pub for years

Time for a cool sharp Harp... yes, I'm showing my age, but they ysed to be great adverts...

As for other comments:

1. Don't obsess about food. People are capable of going a couple of hours (e.g. Manchester - London) without stuffing their faces. Bear in mind that a restaurant takes up the equivalent of up to three seats (one that the passenger normally sits in, one for them to sit in for their restaurant meal and the equivalent of one for the food to be prepared in.

2. Top up seats are a great idea. Ideally people won't need to use them, but on the busiest services its much more organised than sitting on the floor. I'd have more top up seats to deal with luggage/ prams/ wheelchairs/ additional standing at peak times

3. Some stations (Chester le Street, Diss etc) only have "Intercity" services for 99% of their services, and "Intercity" trains are used for lots of local journeys elsewhere. Something to bear in mind

4. Free wifi would be a great benefit, one thing the car/ planes cannot compete with

5. Trying a "one size fits all" policy won't work for long distance services. The mix of "business" and "leisure" differs, the peaks differ

6. On fixed formation trains like Pendolini, how about numbering the seats across the whole train? So seats 1-75 would be in Coach A, seats 101-175 would be in Coach B, seats 201-275 would be in coach C... would avoid some of the confusion I've seen where people find "seat 42" and get into arguments about "which" seat 42 it is...

7. I'd concentrate more about improving the "station" than the "train". Look how much better the Airport experience can be than the Train Station experience (ignoring the "security" part). Why are platforms so windy, exposed, with people standing in the rain? See how much smoother loading is on the new Jubilee Line stations in London or the Sheffield Supertram, where platform indicators show where the doors will be. Learn lessons about the provision of information. If I come to Manchester Piccadilly I'd like to see (as well as the current destination screens) a few screens showing the next three/five trains to Manchester Airport/ Stockport/ Liverpool. Same with Leeds showing the next few Bradford/ York/ Wakefield services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and 8. Consider having "numbered" trains (as per old Southern Region practice) for clockface services to identify the same regular stopping pattern. It'd stop people being worried about being on unfamiliar services.

 

[LE Greys]

I'd concentrate more about improving the "station" than the "train". Look how much better the Airport experience can be than the Train Station experience (ignoring the "security" part). Why are platforms so windy, exposed, with people standing in the rain? See how much smoother loading is on the new Jubilee Line stations in London or the Sheffield Supertram, where platform indicators show where the doors will be. Learn lessons about the provision of information. If I come to Manchester Piccadilly I'd like to see (as well as the current destination screens) a few screens showing the next three/five trains to Manchester Airport/ Stockport/ Liverpool. Same with Leeds showing the next few Bradford/ York/ Wakefield services.

I certainly agree with that. Tidying up stations, putting up departure board that people can read, reducing the ammount of clutter to aid passenger circulation and so on would be very helpful. I find LCD screens like the ones at Paddington very hard to read unless brightness and contrast are at maximum. The old TV tube displays and flap boards were much easier to read, but the best are the LED displays such as the one at King's Cross.

The other key point is station catering. Far too many fancy stalls selling frothy coffee and foreign-sounding things. Why can't you get a bacon sarnie, a sausage roll or egg & chips on stations these days? How about decent tea? I do tend to avoid food that you couldn't get in the 1950s, but this happens to be something that really winds me up - and the same is true in airports.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Some good ideas being put out here. Here's a few of the ones I like best, plus one or two of my own:

• NO mayonnaise! Seriously, I cannot have sandwiches unless I bring a packed lunch these days, wherever you go there's always mayo in the sandwiches.
• Station improvements, proper fully enclosed waiting rooms and toliets, open at least from the first train to the last, should be a priority. More important than ticket offices in my opinion, yet some stations (eg. Aberystwyth) have ticket offices (and in this case toilets) but no waiting room, meaning passengers are left out in the cold.
• Headboards for named trains (I'll add names for locomotives to that, where locomotives still exist - doesn't really work for multiple units).
• Free wi-fi on board, and in station waiting rooms
• Using stations as kichens sounds good, but phoning ahead your order is bound to cause some problems
• More cleaners, and corosponding reduction in unemployment
• Nationalisation, to capture all the money currenting going to TOC and ROSCO profits to allow funding of the above

Some specific points about seating:

Away from the food table removing a few seats to increase legroom would be a nice idea, especially for lanky gits such as myself.

Rather than sacrifice seats, perhaps reduce the number of tables, sad yes but if it means passengers get decent legroom without anymore passengers having to stand, it might be worth it. I'd also want to ensure passengers don't get a veiw of the pillars rather than out of the windows.

I think it might be an idea to apply the 'different chairs' princible, which I'm told is in Christopher Alexander's 'Pattern Language' book. The idea is you have a variety of different chair designs, perhaps a coach of each. Some passengers will go for the softer padded seats, others perfer hard seats.

At the same time I'd take a good look at what passengers demand in the way of comfort and services for different journey times (what journey time do they expect a toilet, what time are they prepared to put up with high density seating, 3+2 seating, lack of internal doors (seperating the seating area and the vestibules, common although neither exclusive to or inevitable with 1/3 2/3 external doors) etc etc. Design trains or refurbishments with that in mind.

Good idea for a survey.

It isn't just the draft problem when you have 1/3 2/3 external doors, the layout lends itself to busy commuter services by allowing faster boarding but these doors are normally wider, which means they come at a cost of reduced seating capacity. The longer the distance the more you want to avoid having anyone standing, the Javelins seem to reduce the problem by having 1/3 2/3 doors, but narrow ones, which perhaps makes them a good comprimise for something like PAD - Oxford. We needed somthing like 158s for long-distance XC routes, not 170s, and 158s not 150s on the Fishguard (which is basicly an express, as it ommits more stops than the INTERCITYs from Paddington).

 

[tbtc]

Tidying up stations, putting up departure board that people can read, reducing the ammount of clutter to aid passenger circulation and so on would be very helpful

It'd also be good to offer a "summary" for the busiest destinations. Whist its democratic for the boards at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly to show every station equally, in truth the demand for Bolton/ Liverpool/ Warrington/ Manchester Airport/ Huddersfield/ Stockport is going to be significantly greater than the demand for Lockerbie/ Northallerton/ Scunthorpe/ Basingstoke/ Cheltenham/ Ely. So, if there was a screen showing the next few Stockport trains (including which ones get overtaken) then you'd know where to look.

So many stations are the result of generations of muddling, meaning the layout is very confused/ disjointed with different "flows" of people walking through each others' paths, people sitting on luggage and getting in the way of commuters... whereas Airports are designed for modern purpose. It'll be hard to change station layouts, but I think that is more important than the train environment (where there is less scope for improvement)

 

[WestCoast]

It'd also be good to offer a "summary" for the busiest destinations. Whist its democratic for the boards at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly to show every station equally, in truth the demand for Bolton/ Liverpool/ Warrington/ Manchester Airport/ Huddersfield/ Stockport is going to be significantly greater than the demand for Lockerbie/ Northallerton/ Scunthorpe/ Basingstoke/ Cheltenham/ Ely. So, if there was a screen showing the next few Stockport trains (including which ones get overtaken) then you'd know where to look.

On a similar subject, rather than announcing all calling points why not just announce the key via points like they do on the continent. It would mean less noise pollution in stations but it would require more paper information.

 

[SS4]

1. Don't obsess about food. People are capable of going a couple of hours (e.g. Manchester - London) without stuffing their faces. Bear in mind that a restaurant takes up the equivalent of up to three seats (one that the passenger normally sits in, one for them to sit in for their restaurant meal and the equivalent of one for the food to be prepared in.

Fair point although good food can be a source of added value for a trip.

4. Free wifi would be a great benefit, one thing the car/ planes cannot compete with

Seconded, especially when bandwidth is taken into account (block youtube etc)

7. I'd concentrate more about improving the "station" than the "train".

I agree, a lot of stations just have the idea that they want to get rid of people. As for the Jubilee line platforms give me wind and rain over sweating like a pig crammed in a semicircle around the doors. At least in many cases most people don't know where the doors are so the rush is less.

The other key point is station catering. Far too many fancy stalls selling frothy coffee and foreign-sounding things. Why can't you get a bacon sarnie, a sausage roll or egg & chips on stations these days? How about decent tea? I do tend to avoid food that you couldn't get in the 1950s, but this happens to be something that really winds me up - and the same is true in airports.

Give me good old fashioned food any time (although I do like the pretzel shop in the Pallasades above BHM)

 

[Blindtraveler]

yay for the comment re fancy station food, quite agree with you. Both on station and ontrain keep it simple with no mayo options. As to using stations as kitchens and phoning meal orders ahead, i'm told a similar system works and has done for years in india, so it would i'm sure work here. Example for ilustrative purposes only. published times for a hot lunch available at varius stations network wide are between 12 and 2. The 08:20 xc voyager from aberdeen to penzance collects its lunch orders at morpeth, with last orders being on departure from haymarket. Customers joining at waverley, dunbar and berwic would contact the toc via its website/callcentre prior to travel up to an hour before sheduled arival time at morpeth. Keyosks with a touch screen could also be offered at major stations. Customers who wernt on intime for lunch could request and evening meal for collection at taunton.

I for one would use it as much as i hate them, xc do offer good edb-bhm fares must also comment on drinks cups, I like the sizes. Dont reduce them, its a bad trollies saving grace, a decent cuppa!

 

[Rhydgaled]

On information systems, I think some stations, particularly fairly small / rural stations with high levels of tourist traffic, should be designated heritage stations. I think most stations in my home county of Pembrokeshire should receive such status. These should have traditional colour schemes like chocolate and cream (not vivid Arriva turquoise for example) and heritage buildings should be preserved (these two points should extend to all other stations as well).

However, a modern information display, Lymington town is the station I'm thinking of here, can somtimes upset the heritage feel (the chime, was acceptable as would be the following anouncment (assuming Phil Sayer does it a not the awful woman/women who seems to inhabit Arriva Trains Wales stations)). At these stations, assuming the cost of an information system is considered worthwhile, the displays should be inside the waiting room where they shouldn't have an impact on the heritage feel.

In general, anouncements should be limited to those about the service and targeted reminders to not smoke (would be great if there was some way to only play these if sombody is spotted breaching this regulation "the person smoking on platform 2 is reminded that smoking is not allowed on this station or any train service"), anouncments not to leave luggage unattended are too frequent.

 

[LE Greys]

On a similar subject, rather than announcing all calling points why not just announce the key via points like they do on the continent. It would mean less noise pollution in stations but it would require more paper information.

Because some clot (like me) would find himself standing around wondering why they hadn't announced the train that called at Liskeard, and let the Penzance express (calling at Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth) go because it couldn't be the train calling at little Liskeard, could it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On information systems, I think some stations, particularly fairly small / rural stations with high levels of tourist traffic, should be designated heritage stations. I think most stations in my home county of Pembrokeshire should receive such status. These should have traditional colour schemes like chocolate and cream (not vivid Arriva turquoise for example) and heritage buildings should be preserved (these two points should extend to all other stations as well).

However, a modern information display, Lymington town is the station I'm thinking of here, can somtimes upset the heritage feel (the chime, was acceptable as would be the following anouncment (assuming Phil Sayer does it a not the awful woman/women who seems to inhabit Arriva Trains Wales stations)). At these stations, assuming the cost of an information system is considered worthwhile, the displays should be inside the waiting room where they shouldn't have an impact on the heritage feel.

In general, anouncements should be limited to those about the service and targeted reminders to not smoke (would be great if there was some way to only play these if sombody is spotted breaching this regulation "the person smoking on platform 2 is reminded that smoking is not allowed on this station or any train service"), anouncments not to leave luggage unattended are too frequent.

This makes sense as well. I know that stations are not museums, but one anachronistic piece of technology can ruin the whole image.

I also wonder whether there is really any point to the display at Lymington Town. How about a board that says:
<== Brockenhurst and Everywhere Else ________ Lymington Pier ==>
Trains every half hour at xx: xx and xx: xx

As for all the points about the food, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like mayo.

 

[SS4]

As for all the points about the food, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like mayo.

Mayo looks like something else, suppose to say this something else is better suited to the metre high thread

On a similar subject does anyone else find the sauce sachets are inadequate in volume?

 

[starrymarkb]

Because some clot (like me) would find himself standing around wondering why they hadn't announced the train that called at Liskeard, and let the Penzance express (calling at Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth) go because it couldn't be the train calling at little Liskeard, could it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This makes sense as well. I know that stations are not museums, but one anachronistic piece of technology can ruin the whole image.

I also wonder whether there is really any point to the display at Lymington Town. How about a board that says:
<== Brockenhurst and Everywhere Else ________ Lymington Pier ==>
Trains every half hour at xx: xx and xx: xx

I love a mix of old and modern - I really don't think that things should be kept old for old's stake. Liskeard is a good example with a Modern station building and waiting room but the platforms are still traditional.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On information systems, I think some stations, particularly fairly small / rural stations with high levels of tourist traffic, should be designated heritage stations. I think most stations in my home county of Pembrokeshire should receive such status. These should have traditional colour schemes like chocolate and cream (not vivid Arriva turquoise for example) and heritage buildings should be preserved (these two points should extend to all other stations as well).

However, a modern information display, Lymington town is the station I'm thinking of here, can somtimes upset the heritage feel (the chime, was acceptable as would be the following anouncment (assuming Phil Sayer does it a not the awful woman/women who seems to inhabit Arriva Trains Wales stations)). At these stations, assuming the cost of an information system is considered worthwhile, the displays should be inside the waiting room where they shouldn't have an impact on the heritage feel.

In general, anouncements should be limited to those about the service and targeted reminders to not smoke (would be great if there was some way to only play these if sombody is spotted breaching this regulation "the person smoking on platform 2 is reminded that smoking is not allowed on this station or any train service"), anouncments not to leave luggage unattended are too frequent.

Those displays are great, you can read them from most points on the platform at a glance. Visible Passenger information is something the UK railways do well. Lille Europe just has a tiny CRT Monitor every 100m or so (of the 400m platforms) which made it very hard to spot the tiny flashing "Retard 15m" that appeared a minute after scheduled departure time.

While speaking about heritage I must rant against faux heritage. Something I detest is mock tudor, mock victorian etc architechure. It just looks so unbelievably naff and isn't fooling anyone (ie Poundbury just looks like a giant estate of Barratt Hutches rather then a traditional English Village). Be brave and use current architectural styles for new structures. A blend of old and new looks much better then a mock victorian bus shelter

 

[button_boxer]

On a similar subject, rather than announcing all calling points why not just announce the key via points like they do on the continent. It would mean less noise pollution in stations but it would require more paper information.

I'm sure Blindtraveler will have something to say on that one...

 

[Blindtraveler]

what ever gave you that idea? As it happens I do. Noise perlution would, in my plan be combatted by a law that any dmu/deezal loco standing for more than say, 7 minutes be switched off saving fule, the environment and cutting noise. Remember the outcry after the ditra upgrade at bhm? good customer announcements are vital not just for the visually impaired but those with dislexia and other disabilitties and for that man at the back who left his specks on the bus! The train annoncements must be clear, give as much info on the service as possible and be made in good time.

All that said, the securitty, luggage etc announcements are played too much!

 

[amcluesent]

Long distance could be cheered up by having more 'trolley-dolleys' like on Virgin Atlantic and the girls wearing skirts not trousers.

 

[Blindtraveler]

or in a similar veign, dubble beds on sleapers!

 

[krus_aragon]

Time for a cool sharp Harp... yes, I'm showing my age, but they ysed to be great adverts...

Hey, I remember that tagline! Not that I was old enough to drink when I'd have heard it...

 

[NightatLaira]

or in a similar veign, dubble beds on sleapers!

Virgin Sleepers? could put up thirties style signs saying "No rumpy pumpy!" or something like that.

It could be a clandestine selling point... might even save the sleeper!

 

[Blindtraveler]

haha! Very good. Of course, that instruction not to do it would rerult in oposit. if a bitta hanky panky were to take place on existing sleapers, nobody would no as the cupplings of the mk3 stock do plenty groaning themselves!

 

[Geezertronic]

I am sure you have some decent things to say Blindtraveler, but I cannot read most of your posts without being put off. I believe there are spell checkers out there if you need them