bramling
Veteran Member
Possibly, although in at least some of the cases the individuals are reasonably clued up types. On balance I'd suggest you're probably right though.
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Long distance driving
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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Possibly, although in at least some of the cases the individuals are reasonably clued up types. On balance I'd suggest you're probably right though.
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R
RailUK Forums
Slightly off topic (although this thread has meandered somewhat from the opening post), I don't understand why so many motorists insist on driving down lanes closed with red 'X'. However, today, in the rush hour on the M25 in Kent / Surrey this morning, there was a 'move over' sign, and no vehicle travellled in this lane for about two miles before the red 'X', nor in the closed section - I was pleasantly surprised!
Maybe the police have started prosecuting - they have continuous camera footage of that lane I think (to monitor for breakdowns)
nlogax
Established Member
To address @MotCO's point about straying a bit off-topic, how do we feel about smart motorways? For long distance drives do they really speed the flow and address congestion by doing away with hard shoulders and gaining that extra lane, or do they just complicate matters? (lanes that should be shoulders, shoulders that should be lanes, that weirdness when trying to identify where the exit slip actually begins, etc)
eMeS
Member
Is this relevant?
https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/...dents-increase-more-than-seven-fold-1-8871886
A sevenfold increase suggests that incidents are being counted differently. If not, there's something seriously wrong. I'm close to M1, Jn 14 and there was a horrific accident(?) / incident shortly after the smart features were introduced - can't find a link at the moment.
3141
Established Member
Apologies if someone's already made the following points. I know some people can drive for long hours and long distances starting early and/or finishing late, but there are two problems. One is that you're certainly going be less alert towards the end of the journey. The other is that although you can do this now, you get older every day and one day you'll find you're falling asleep on a trip you could previously manage without difficulty. An outstanding example of that was the driver who went off the M62 in 2001 onto the East Coast Main Line at Great Heck. He told police that there'd been a problem with his trailer and that he could go without sleep for 36 hours. Well, perhaps at one time he could. But then came the day when he was that bit older, or more tired, or hadn't slept well the night before, or hadn't had a proper meal....he pushed himself too far and the consequences included several deaths.
3141
Established Member
Someone I know is serving seven years after an accident on a "smart" section of the M1. He'd picked up a coachload of students from somewhere on the south coast for a visit to Birmingham. They'd started very early in the morning (about 4.30 am I think) in the winter and it was still dark on the M1. A car with four people had stopped in lane 1. It was actually the hard shoulder at that point and there were signs after the previous junction directing drivers to move right out of lane 1 and into lane 2. The coach driver missed those signs and smashed into the car, killing three. CCTV showed that a lorry driver had also missed the signs shortly before the accident, but he spotted the parked car ahead and had moved out of lane 1 in time.
This relates to the topic of this thread, because the coach driver was in his late seventies at the time and was proud of his ability to drive for long hours with late finishes and early starts. There is no doubt that the accident was his fault. He had reached the point where he couldn't start that early and maintain a full state of alertness. He should have seen the signs and the car parked ahead of him.
But the smart motorway also contributed. In particular, I think those motorways where the left hand lane is sometimes a driving lane and sometimes a hard shoulder introduce an element of uncertainty which some drivers sometimes won't cope with. They make a mistake more likely. "All lanes running" motorways with no hard shoulder are not quite as potentially dangerous, but if a vehicle breaks down and cannot get off the carriageway (unless it's luckily near a refuge area) the possibility of an accident increases massively. Presumably the DfT concluded that as vehicles are much more reliable today a hard shoulder that was infrequently needed was an expensive luxury. But it's interesting to contrast the risks that have been judged to be acceptable on a motorway with the aspiration that, on the railways, risks should be completely edited out.
bramling
Veteran Member
I think the latter point about whether hard shoulders are an expensive luxury was a question that was simply overtaken by events. Population and congestion increased massively over the 2000s, and it simply seems to have become a case of do something in desperation to attempt to keep up. A lot easier to get rid of a hard shoulder then do a proper widening job, especially with the saturated tending to coincide with heavily developed parts of the country where full widening is particularly costly.
Now that is an interesting question, which should be forcefully put to the ORR.
The ORR are seen as the ‘safety nazis’ restricting rail potential.
But the ORR are the Office of Rail And ROAD. As per the Infrastructure Act 2015....
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/7/section/12
12Monitor: general dutiesF1The Office of Rail and Road] must exercise its functions under sections 10 and 11 in the way that it considers most likely to promote—
(a)the performance, and
(b)the efficiency,
of the strategic highways company.
(2)The Office must also, in exercising those functions, have regard to—
(a)the interests of users of highways,
(b)the safety of users of highways,
Safety is in there (though only as a ‘must also’!!)
Apologies I don’t know how to get pasted text into a box...??
In cases like yours very clearly the car is the winner as Crosscountry, the most likely TOC given the locations you`ve used are horribly expensive from the west to Birmingham and beyond. Not necessarily the same from London to Scotland however. I personally dislike driving and cars in general but where needs must....5 hours from Burton on Trent to Newquay is very good considering how much of a nightmare the M5 has been this year.
I’m a long distance taxi driver, covering at the moment 300-500 miles a day, 8-14 hour days, mainly 10 hours plus at the moment, as typing this I’m looking at 5.45am start with about 7pm finish, yesterday was 7.45am start with 7.30pm finish, mainly drive on M5, North Devon link road A361, country lanes-roads, and city driving, so a bit of everything, and I find I’m wiped out by end of the day, plus I have passengers a lot which makes things harder, and the crazy hours at the moment dont help, Just last week i did a 13 hour day, and from approx 7.20am-5.15pm I only managed go to the loo quickly with no breaks at all, and the driving was country roads, A roads and bit of motorway, I did Bampton-Axminster-Tiverton-Hartland point near Biddeford-Exeter-Combe Martin-Braunton-Exeter-Bideford via Crediton road both ways-Exeter-West Buckland which near Barnstaple-Bampton, most wont know where these places are, but it was a crazy day, then the next day i did 12 hours and 300 miles.
The worse thing is the other drivers on the roads, I’m no angel by any means, but there are so many idiots about who most likely got there licenses from bottom of a cereal box, I see so many ditherers who not got foggiest what they are doing, bumble along without care in the world, pay no attention at all, hold everyone up, middle lane hoggers who end up undertaking as I’m in inside lane which clear, with idiot in middle lane who refuses to move into inside lane, now i could flash them or move sharply over 3 lanes to go round which not great so just stay in my lane and undertake, and one thing I’m wary of is on the A361 there overtaking lanes and when they end there’s often drivers lunging to overtake lorries etc and often miss judged, and been too aggressive, so i have braked to let them get back in safely, and countless other morons on the roads. So driving isn’t fun these days, just tiring and stressful.
The worse thing is the other drivers on the roads, I’m no angel by any means, but there are so many idiots about who most likely got there licenses from bottom of a cereal box, I see so many ditherers who not got foggiest what they are doing, bumble along without care in the world, pay no attention at all, hold everyone up, middle lane hoggers who end up undertaking as I’m in inside lane which clear, with idiot in middle lane who refuses to move into inside lane, now i could flash them or move sharply over 3 lanes to go round which not great so just stay in my lane and undertake, and one thing I’m wary of is on the A361 there overtaking lanes and when they end there’s often drivers lunging to overtake lorries etc and often miss judged, and been too aggressive, so i have braked to let them get back in safely, and countless other morons on the roads. So driving isn’t fun these days, just tiring and stressful.
telstarbox
Established Member
For the exit slip:
A sign to an off-motorway destination with a downwards arrow (above lane 1) means that lane 1 will lead directly off the carriageway (this is known as a "lane drop" in the trade).
A sign with an upwards diagonal arrow means you'll need to turn left into the slip road after the countdown markers.
https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf (see pages 79-80)
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
That applies to permanent signage but the variable signs on active motorways do something different. If the hard shoulder is in use then they say "Hard Shoulder for Junction xx only", if not then there is a sign where the exit slip begins indicating where drivers can start using the hard shoulder.
A lot of the issue with motorways is that many drivers don't feel assertive enough to move to the right unless there is a very long gap in that lane. This in turn is probably down to the aggressive actions of some speeding drivers who object to their illegal behavior being briefly interrupted. So you get people "hogging" the middle lane because they're afraid of getting trapped behind something slow if they move to the left. Also when the hard shoulder repeatedly "lane drops" people are unwilling to use it in case they can't get out again.
If people didn’t hog the middle lane queues wouldn’t build up behind them so there will be longer gaps to pull out into. Try driving in Germany and see how much better it works because everybody moves over.
If they aren’t confident to change lane they are dangerous and shouldn’t be on the motorway. Probably the same people who trundle down the sliproad without accelerating and only look for a space when they get to the end.
If they aren’t confident to change lane they are dangerous and shouldn’t be on the motorway. Probably the same people who trundle down the sliproad without accelerating and only look for a space when they get to the end.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That didn't occur to me consciously - but strangely, when driving in Italy the other month where that approach isn't followed, I did quite a lot of subconscious unnecessary moving over at junctions!
The all lane running on the M25 I can cope with but the "smart" sections of the M1 between Luton and MK can be pretty hairy. Maybe if I drove that section more than a couple of times a year I might get a mental map of where there are always 4 lanes, sometimes 4 lanes and always 3 lanes.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The situation I'm describing is when people won't move from the middle lane into the left hand lane because they're worried about getting out again when they need to pass a slower vehicle. The queues that build up due to middle lane hogging tend to be in the right hand lane because everyone moves out early to avoid getting trapped behind the hogger.
That's probably true, but a crackdown on practices such as tailgating, and probably the speeding that is the root cause, would help those people get more confidence.
If they weren’t hogging the middle lane the traffic would be free flowing and able to move out to allow them out of lane 1. Bunching is caused by these idiots and then they blame bunching for not wanting to move in?
Tailgating is generally caused by lane hogging. Much less of it in Germany even when they are going MUCH faster.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Tailgating is caused by people who allow frustration to get the better of them and are therefore dangerous drivers and should not be on the road. There is no room for aggression when carrying out a safety-critical task of any kind. You should NEVER drive too close to the car in front. There is NO situation in which this is the correct action. By all means use your horn and headlights to attract their attention if you feel they have just forgotten (even though that's not an official use for them, it's an accepted one) but DO NOT approach closer to the rear of them than the proper reaction and braking distance. By doing so you put everyone around at unnecessary risk just because you cannot control your temper.
However, lane hogging is also an inappropriate practice and needs more enforcement against it. I will note again, though, that remaining in the middle lane because the two cars you are overtaking in the left hand lane are not spaced out adequately to safely pull back in is NOT lane hogging, despite what an awful lot of drivers of German premium cars seem to think. It's a little amusing, I must admit, when they try to pull left to overtake and find that there was indeed not adequate space to do so, and end up left at 56mph behind the next lorry.
And, by the way, to impatient drivers, if I'm overtaking two lorries in lane 3 at 70mph and this is not to your taste, please use your patience and do not overtake me until I have fully completed my manoeuvre once I've passed them. I don't appreciate having my space to abort my manoeuvre removed just because you are impatient. There's always the risk the vehicle in lane 1 may move right at the same second, and so I need that ability to abort, both for my safety and yours. Do not pass a vehicle which is moving out of your lane until it has fully crossed the line and turned off its indicators to demonstrate this.
There is no excuse for impatient, dangerous driving. It kills people.
3141
Established Member
I take the point you're making, and I think my description of the hard shoulder as "an expensive luxury" was too loose. But however desperate the DfT may have been, I'd expect that they'd have made some sort of assessment of the safety issues of increasing a motorway's capacity by means of removing a hard shoulder and converting it to a running lane. In doing that they apparently concluded that because of the high costs of a proper widening job in the parts of the country where that was most needed, any additional safety risks were worth the money saving of not having to widen the carriageway to create a new hard shoulder.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It might also have been weighed up against the fact that most people stopping on the hard shoulder don't need to do so and could actually have continued to the next junction or service area. People will only stop in a running lane if their vehicle has lost a tyre, power or steering and so has no option but to do so. Whereas far too many people will stop on the hard shoulder for their kid to have a wee or something.
Compare how often you see a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder as against the soft verge of a 70mph 2-lane A-road.
There is a shortcoming of Smart Motorways, though, in that if a car stops in a running lane there is supposed to be a lane closure and speed reduction in very short order, but in my observation this very often doesn't occur. I do wonder if it would be helpful, provided the tech can do it, to set the system to put up 40mph[1] and POSSIBLE OBSTRUCTION ON ROAD (as well as flagging the issue to the CCTV operator to check precisely what has happened) in the event that a vehicle is seen to pass one gantry but then doesn't pass the next one in a reasonable time based on its detected speed at the previous gantry and the passing of other vehicles. If it isn't capable of that it would be a very valuable thing to add. If that vehicle then passed a second gantry (showing a number plate reading error) that could be automatically removed.
[1] Possibly "advisory 40" without the red circle and with yellow flashing lights rather than "mandatory 40" to stop accidents from panic braking.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Average speed cameras show that there is enough processing power to time every car from one gantry to the next. However I fear there might be a lot of false positives from this due to the plate not being readable at the second gantry, perhaps if obstructed by a HGV behind, plus a risk of false negatives if the plate isn't picked up at the first gantry and the vehicle then stops. Either could destroy confidence in a fully automated system. Perhaps machine vision or radar systems to automatically alert to a standing vehicle might be a better option - maybe they have these already?
I agree that there are some middle lane hoggers, but some of the time, it comes about because the motorway is saturated and cannot cope with the traffic volumes.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I don't think they really make much difference unless the motorway is sufficiently crowded that queues build up behind the hogger and can't flow freely through to the right, but not so crowded that there is no space in the lane to the left for the hogger to move into.
There is a long standing trial on the A9 from Perth to Inverness where HGVs are permitted to travel at 50mph, with signs every few miles explaining this. Of course all the wagons actually travel at 55. But because some people are frankly hopeless and can’t understand signs they drive their cars at 50, holding everyone else up. Then they get to the dual carriageway sections, accelerate to 80 (no average speed cameras there) and you can’t overtake them there either.
A couple of weeks ago I was following someone on a remote stretch of very good but twisty road in Scotland who thought it was acceptable to drive at 35mph in perfect weather conditions. Two big wagons behind him who couldn’t overtake, then me, and about a mile of traffic behind. Absolutely infuriating, wasting time for a lot of people and fuel as well as the traffic kept bunching.
I don’t regard it is as middle lane hogging if it’s 3/4 lanes of traffic all moving at roughly the same speed but the inside lane is running a bit more quickly. However on the lower reaches of the M1 and M40 I regularly see people sitting in lane 3 or 4 with nothing in any lane for half a mile in front of them. I’m afraid I go through in lane one and give them a blast on the horn as I draw level. If it was up to me the public should be able to take photos and shop them, like you can in NYC with stationary cars idling.
telstarbox
Established Member
Understandable but I read somewhere that that's risky as the hogger wouldn't expect an 'undertake' if they decide to move back to lane 1?
I always give them a spare lane between us for this very reason. Although in my 30+ years of driving I have never, ever seen a lane hogger like this decide to move back without a ‘prompt’. No doubt it will happen one day, hence giving a lane spare to provide enough room to take evasive action.
telstarbox
Established Member
Fair enough.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If there's space I usually pass them on the right then sweep right across the front of them (at a safe distance) into the lane on their left. Often does the trick.
Yep I do that if there’s a lane free to their right. Although there’s something that feels slightly wrong in moving from Lane 4 to Lane 1 in one go!
In my experience such a move wakes them up about 1 time in 4. The most effective way is to flash your main beam, slowly, one second on one second off, for about 15 seconds on approach. Particularly if you are in a white car.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That, which really does have to be executed textbook-perfectly for maximum enjoyment, is a wonderfully fun and perfectly safe piece of road-based passive "aggression"
(Not really aggression as such, as there's no need to get angry, it's really quite enjoyable - it fits under the same sort of banner as being excruciatingly polite and helpful to somebody insistent on giving you a gobful of abuse)
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