London Waterloo International Platforms

[hstmatt]

Hi, am just wondering whats happening with Waterloo International platforms. I know that they were ment to be used by domestic trains but this hasnt happened. Also, why is the 3rd rail and buffer lights left on even though they are not getting used? I saw a picture and the buffer lights were on.

 

[N Levers]

Hi, am just wondering whats happening with Waterloo International platforms. I know that they were ment to be used by domestic trains but this hasnt happened. Also, why is the 3rd rail and buffer lights left on even though they are not getting used? I saw a picture and the buffer lights were on.

They are being used to host The Railway Children http://www.railwaychildrenwaterloo.com/home/about/

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Hi, am just wondering whats happening with Waterloo International platforms. I know that they were ment to be used by domestic trains but this hasnt happened. Also, why is the 3rd rail and buffer lights left on even though they are not getting used? I saw a picture and the buffer lights were on.

There is a big section and report all about them on the British Rail website. They are owned by the British Railways Board now, and there is some stuff on their website. Afraid I can't link to it as i'm on a mobile right now.

 

[MCR247]

Hi, am just wondering whats happening with Waterloo International platforms. I know that they were ment to be used by domestic trains but this hasnt happened. Also, why is the 3rd rail and buffer lights left on even though they are not getting used? I saw a picture and the buffer lights were on.

There is no use for extra platforms if there are no extra stock, and extra paths to get them there

 

[WillPS]

Isn't there a bottleneck outside Waterloo that prevents them being at all useful anyway?

 

[NSEFAN]

Isn't there a bottleneck outside Waterloo that prevents them being at all useful anyway?

Yes, and I've heard that using platforms 20-25 efficiently would require the complete remodelling of the crossovers outside the station. It could be done, but not without a lot of planning to get it done smoothly. Sufficient funds would also help!

 

[PhilipW]

Hi, am just wondering whats happening with Waterloo International platforms.

Easy answer.

Nothing

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I like how the tags on this thread for searching have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

If these platforms were used, they are so long they could double up having 2, 8 coach trains in each, the front one, furthest from the concourse, of course leaving before the rear train. I did hear that it may be poss to at least get platform 20 in use. It does seem a dreadful waste not using these platforms, there would have to be a little remodelling of the concourse to gain easier access. They could use the underneath area, the old waiting room for Eurostar, for a shopping or office complex, that whole side of Waterloo/York Road could do with a face lift/rebuild, it is rather scruffy.

 

[cle]

They're on the wrong side I guess, and now that Airtrack is cancelled, the money for the Heathrow trains won't be coming to get them back into use.

If Woking and Basingstoke platforms were both 16 car (I'm sure they're at least 12) this could be good for sending a service express to those which could then split at one of those stations - thus saving paths. Even if just a fast and a slow Poole/Weymouth, for example?

Would still need to get across the Windsor lines though.

Still, it's quite interesting in the interim going to the Railway Children and having a look around. And it's better than doing nothing with the space.

 

[t o m]

They are being used to host The Railway Children http://www.railwaychildrenwaterloo.com/home/about/

I'm going to see that next week, quite looking forward to it.

 

[hmp455]

They are going to be used to implement a 10-car suburban railway (once SWT get the 456s from Southern)

Sort of on-topic: What will happen to the 450/5s-Will extra cars be built or will these services or will they switch to 458s using surplus 460 cars?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

They are going to be used to implement a 10-car suburban railway (once SWT get the 456s from Southern)

When is that likely to happen?

 

[Drsatan]

They are going to be used to implement a 10-car suburban railway (once SWT get the 456s from Southern)

When is that likely to happen?

Probably when the 23 class 377/5s subleased to FCC return once the Thameslink project has finished.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If these platforms were used, they are so long they could double up having 2, 8 coach trains in each, the front one, furthest from the concourse, of course leaving before the rear train. I did hear that it may be poss to at least get platform 20 in use. It does seem a dreadful waste not using these platforms, there would have to be a little remodelling of the concourse to gain easier access. They could use the underneath area, the old waiting room for Eurostar, for a shopping or office complex, that whole side of Waterloo/York Road could do with a face lift/rebuild, it is rather scruffy.

NR also suggested that some of the BML services could be diverted to the former Eurostar platforms where they would gain access to their normal route via the Linford Street flyover. This is because solely using them for Windsor line services (which would be the easiest option) is a waste since the Eurostar platforms are much longer than all the others at Waterloo station.

Ideally, they'd be brought into service for Weymouth line services, along with Portsmouth and possibly West of England services, but a flyover would have to be built near Vauxhall to allow such trains to access the fast lines.

Overall though it's stupid that the platforms have been able to sit out of use for nearly four years. I read in a contemporary issue of RAIL that the DfT should have commissioned a committee of people from themselves, NR, ORR, Eurostar and SWT to decide what to do with the Eurostar platforms. For every three months the platforms sat out of use following the withdrawal of Eurostar services their salaries would be docked by 25%.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sort of on-topic: What will happen to the 450/5s-Will extra cars be built or will these services or will they switch to 458s using surplus 460 cars?

Either could still happen. The ITT was to provide for X number of 10 car trains somehow for Windsor side 10 car - and the two competing options in the public domain were to either expand the 450/5 fleet, or to convert the 458/460s fleet.

Clearly if the latter choice was taken the 458/460s would have to change to whatever services first go to 10 car. Another cost implication is that the HC 450/5s might have to be changed back to normal layout - depending on where they get used next of course.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

NR also suggested that some of the BML services could be diverted to the former Eurostar platforms where they would gain access to their normal route via the Linford Street flyover. This is because solely using them for Windsor line services (which would be the easiest option) is a waste since the Eurostar platforms are much longer than all the others at Waterloo station.

That's history now. Appeared as an option ages ago but never made it into further RUSs. It is no longer even being considered as a bolt hole for Southeastern services during the London Bridge rebuild either.

Ideally, they'd be brought into service for Weymouth line services, along with Portsmouth and possibly West of England services, but a flyover would have to be built near Vauxhall to allow such trains to access the fast lines.

Latest London and SE RUS just published says that won't happen now. They have come up with a totally different solution to fast line capacity, which is a 5th track (a main fast reversible/relief) from Hampton Court Jn (Surbiton) to Waterloo.

 

[LE Greys]

Another ridiculous situation. Both platforms and approach lines would be very useful, and the former departure facilities could have added greatly to Waterloo, certainly an improvement on the ticket office. Really, there should have been a plan to bring them into domestic use the day that Eurostar moved out, with the platforms about six months later.

The best answer would be to leave the throat as it is for now, then either demolish or reroute the flyover (it blocks access from the south) and provide either another flyover or a flat junction somewhere around Vauxhall. A combination of scaffolding and temporary bridges could take passengers from the platforms direct to the concourse, until some kind of permanent structure could go in. That would involve knocking holes in the wall, but it's probably doable.

 

[swt_passenger]

The best answer would be to leave the throat as it is for now, then either demolish or reroute the flyover (it blocks access from the south) and provide either another flyover or a flat junction somewhere around Vauxhall.

You can't leave the throat as it is, because platforms 1-4 are only 8 car length. To allow 10 car services on the main slow side of Waterloo platforms 1 and 2 have to be given up, so all other normal platforming has to move across by two platforms to the north - this needs changes to the throat, and therefore at least two platforms of the international station.

There is only one possible place for a flyover, this was established back in 2005, and that is between Clapham Junction and Queenstown Rd, with the latter station's platforms resited to where the main fasts currently are. The viaduct approaching Vauxhall is considered too narrow to fit a flyover on. One of the major problems is that you have to have enough space to run the normal service while it is being built.

But to even suggest a flat crossing for what is a 24 tph peak service is basically ridiculous.

 

[LE Greys]

You can't leave the throat as it is, because platforms 1-4 are only 8 car length. To allow 10 car services on the main slow side of Waterloo platforms 1 and 2 have to be given up, so all other normal platforming has to move across by two platforms to the north - this needs changes to the throat, and therefore at least two platforms of the international station.

There is only one possible place for a flyover, this was established back in 2005, and that is between Clapham Junction and Queenstown Rd, with the latter station's platforms resited to where the main fasts currently are. The viaduct approaching Vauxhall is considered too narrow to fit a flyover on. One of the major problems is that you have to have enough space to run the normal service while it is being built.

But to even suggest a flat crossing for what is a 24 tph peak service is basically ridiculous.

I'm really talking about a temporary bodge to get the platforms into use before building a proper flyover. Another idea might be to slew two or four lines over to leave space to build the flyover.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I don't normally post here, but I have to get this out in the open:

Last year, I noticed something pretty interesting.

It was on a Sunday - at Bromley South, I spotted a special "Bournemouth & Poole" service, calling at Waterloo. At first, I was like O.o, but then I remembered the junction between the Chatham Mainline and SWML towards Waterloo - the flyover that Eurostar used to use. It's still there, and it has been used in the last year or so since being neglected by Eurostar all those years ago. That particular stretch of track can probably be used by Platforms 20-25 with minimal disruption to the existing domestic services.... but what exactly could they use it for?

Just a thought.

 

[Chris125]

Just because these platforms exist doesnt mean that they should be filled at any cost - the SWML lacks capacity far more than terminal platforms, and the best way to deal with this is to put some inner-suburban services in a crossrail-type tunnel removing the plaform-length issue altogether. A short term solution just to satisfy people who dont like empty platforms would be utterly wasteful.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

That particular stretch of track can probably be used by Platforms 20-25 with minimal disruption to the existing domestic services.... but what exactly could they use it for?

All the appropriate RUS's seem to have discussed it and concluded that there are no advantages - even during the London Bridge rebuild.

AIUI the obvious routes off the Southeastern have no spare paths in the peaks, so basically it is impossible to run a high frequency service in and out. This was different when reserved paths existed for the then Eurostar service pattern, but it's no use for commuter services now.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm really talking about a temporary bodge to get the platforms into use before building a proper flyover. Another idea might be to slew two or four lines over to leave space to build the flyover.

But what is the point - I've explained earlier that Network Rail aren't going to build a flyover any more - they are going to run services into the International station platforms off the Windsor side. How can they possibly 'slew two or four lines over' on an eight tracks wide viaduct anyway?

The fact that it hasn't happened yet is really because there has been no guarantee that SWT will ever get the extra rolling stock they need for the 10 car suburban expansion, so P1 and P2 don't need to close yet.

As you might be aware, platform 20 is already available for SWT to use, but they don't because with all their stock in use it is'nt actually needed yet.

 

[LE Greys]

Just because these platforms exist doesnt mean that they should be filled at any cost - the SWML lacks capacity far more than terminal platforms, and the best way to deal with this is to put some inner-suburban services in a crossrail-type tunnel removing the plaform-length issue altogether. A short term solution just to satisfy people who dont like empty platforms would be utterly wasteful.

Chris

The approach lines are my main concern, far more than the platforms. The reason they do not see any use is that they only access the platforms. Two extra lines between Waterloo and (ideally) Clapham Junction are a far higher priority. We can't have the lines without the platforms, so we need the platforms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But what is the point - I've explained earlier that Network Rail aren't going to build a flyover any more - they are going to run services into the International station platforms off the Windsor side. How can they possibly 'slew two or four lines over' on an eight tracks wide viaduct anyway?

The fact that it hasn't happened yet is really because there has been no guarantee that SWT will ever get the extra rolling stock they need for the 10 car suburban expansion, so P1 and P2 don't need to close yet.

As you might be aware, platform 20 is already available for SWT to use, but they don't because with all their stock in use it is'nt actually needed yet.

AIUI, we have two lines out of use between the flyover and Waterloo. That's the crucial bit, getting them back into full passenger service for their entire length. That would reduce the number of delays between Waterloo and Clapham. I remember stopping on the viaduct many times on expresses and watching 455s overtaking on both sides.

 

[NightatLaira]

If we're talking mad ideas - at relatively low cost you could transfer the Night Riviera Sleeper there - it could then run via North Pole to the GWML.

You might even be able to transfer the 2 Caledonian Sleepers there with a bit of jiggery-pokery and reversing at North Pole.

It could become the new 'London Sleeper Terminal' - and free up early morning space in Euston and Paddington, also enabling more timely arrivals, instead of the ridiculously early London-bound times you get with the Night Riviera at the moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI, we have two lines out of use between the flyover and Waterloo. That's the crucial bit, getting them back into full passenger service for their entire length.

Then the basic problem is that you don't appear to understand the current layout. There are eight tracks in use between Nine Elms Jn (junction of the Eurostar flyover) and Waterloo, all the way through Vauxhall.

There is a reduction to seven tracks between West London Jn and Nine Elms Jn - this gives only three tracks through Queenstown Rd. It is the Windsor side that theoretically has the missing track, but the train frequency is only about 16 tph on that side, so track capacity is OK for that.

Network Rail's plans are for an eventual track layout of 3 Windsors, 3 Main Fast, 3 Main Slow.

 

[LE Greys]

Then the basic problem is that you don't appear to understand the current layout. There are eight tracks in use between Nine Elms Jn (junction of the Eurostar flyover) and Waterloo, all the way through Vauxhall.

There is a reduction to seven tracks between West London Jn and Nine Elms Jn - this gives only three tracks through Queenstown Rd. It is the Windsor side that theoretically has the missing track, but the train frequency is only about 16 tph on that side, so track capacity is OK for that.

Network Rail's plans are for an eventual track layout of 3 Windsors, 3 Main Fast, 3 Main Slow.

I assumed that everything once used by Eurostar was inaccessible for its entire length.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I'd like to see the Waterloo international complex put to some good use. Because at the moment, we are paying to keep in its various dormant states.

 

[RobShipway]

If the class 458's are lengthened to 10 car trains and still remian on the London Waterloo - Reading service surely these thrains would need to go into the International platforms?

Before anyone comments, yes I know that there is at least half a dozen stations on the Waterloo Reading service which need to be extended before 10 car trains are possible, but I believe that work is all ready approved isn't it?

 

[swt_passenger]

If the class 458's are lengthened to 10 car trains and still remian on the London Waterloo - Reading service surely these thrains would need to go into the International platforms?

Before anyone comments, yes I know that there is at least half a dozen stations on the Waterloo Reading service which need to be extended before 10 car trains are possible, but I believe that work is all ready approved isn't it?

If the '10 car' solution is to lengthen the 458s they will almost certainly have to go on to other routes, presumably those currently operated by the 450/5s. There are no plans to run 10 car trains on the Reading line, and despite the obvious 12 car work currently going on at Reading the stations between Virginia Water and Reading are not yet part of the 10 car lengthening programme, they aren't listed in NR's CP4 enhancement plan.

However you are right to mention that some of the Windsor side platforms are too short, eg 17 and 19, are too short for 10 car trains. IIRC 15, 16 and 18 are all 12 car, but 15 is also used by trains arriving from the main fasts.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I don't think 17 and 19 are too short,more like a curvature problem.

 

[Nym]

If we're talking mad ideas - at relatively low cost you could transfer the Night Riviera Sleeper there - it could then run via North Pole to the GWML.

You might even be able to transfer the 2 Caledonian Sleepers there with a bit of jiggery-pokery and reversing at North Pole.

It could become the new 'London Sleeper Terminal' - and free up early morning space in Euston and Paddington, also enabling more timely arrivals, instead of the ridiculously early London-bound times you get with the Night Riviera at the moment.

Thats proberbly the best idea I've seen yet... The only problem is that it takes users further away from Euston Road, and would need dual voltage stock (for the scottish sleepers) to haul it, oh wait, we have some extremly powerful dual voltage stock already

There wouldn't need to be any complicated messing around at North Pole anyway for the WCML Sleepers, simply go up the WLL to Willesden Junction and straight onto the WCML.

GWML Sleepers would need a tincey bit of changing to be able to fit in, ie. track directly onto the GWML rather than just into the Depot. Again, do-able easilly with a small amount of points.

Then we've just got the problem of all the other ideas and usages for the platforms. But it could make a really nice terminus having all the sleeper services in one place, the undercroft as a reception area for incoming and outgoing passengers, make it all exclusive etc.

Would still be possible to use two of the platforms in the daytime aswell.

Oh...

And if there is a need to divert any of the sleepers, need I mention that you can access the NLL at Willesden and therefore the MML, ECML and GEML...?