London underground strike

[Seaeagle]

There was good commentary (audio) on the strike by James O'Brien of LBC. You can listen at http://www.lbc.co.uk/are-you-against-the-striking-tube-drivers-listen-to-this-and-think-again-112552.

Fantasic to hear that from a mainstream journalist

 

[Antman]

Fantasic to hear that from a mainstream journalist

I'd take most of what he says with a pinch of salt, just trying to stir up a reaction from listeners

 

[CC 72100]

I wonder how many people are using the Emirates Airline as an alternative with all this disruption?

Actually, on second thoughts, maybe not... :P

 

[TheNewNo2]

It is a bit quiet in the office today, but not as empty as it was at 3pm yesterday!

 

[A-driver]

I'd take most of what he says with a pinch of salt, just trying to stir up a reaction from listeners

Why a pinch of salt? What he said was one of the most truthful things any journalist has said so far regarding these strikes.

 

[richardio123]

In regards to the strike BBC just got a fantastic and rare shot of a full Neasden depot

https://twitter.com/bbctravelalert/status/619126324553252864

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting comment made on 8 a.m. Radio 4 news bulletin this morning, to the effect that talks between unions and management were going well until TfL recently brought in a 'new' management team and things then rapidly soured. I suspect post-Hendy TfL will revert to being pawns of a mayor emboldened by all the flattering rubbish spoken about him in his bid to show he's tougher than Cameron (and May).

 

[Taunton]

View from outside.

 

[A-driver]

View from outside.

You can compare any jobs you want but it's completely meaningless. I've seen that on Twitter for a while now and don't see the point it's making as it selects the bits of the jobs which prove the authors point.

It's no surprise that people are against tube staff-people a selfish for calling the tube staff selfish. No surprise people resent staff after today's strike. But the majority of people are happy to accept what boris and the evening standard tell them without questioning it and just ignore the valid points being put across by the strikers.

 

[WelshBluebird]

View from outside.

All meaningless as a A-driver says though.
The reality is that staff are being asked to work more hours and work more unsociable hours. If that was you, I am sure you'd want some kind of benefit in return! Be that more pay or better holiday or whatever. If not then you would essentially be agreeing to a pay cut!

 

[telstarbox]

It's also inaccurate to say that doctors aren't paid through training - if they're referring to university then medical students get the same financial support as other students.

 

[Carlisle]

H

It's also inaccurate to say that doctors aren't paid through training - if they're referring to university then medical students get the same financial support as other students.

the problem of tube strikes seems to have always been a worldwide one ,no country has clearly yet come up with a best practice solution weather it be New York with laws preventing strikes , Paris with its driverless trains or simply attempting good industrial relations without being too much of a pushover to the unions

 

[Robertj21a]

H

the problem of tube strikes seems to have always been a worldwide one ,no country has clearly yet come up with a best practice solution weather it be New York with laws preventing strikes , Paris with its driverless trains or simply attempting good industrial relations without being too much of a pushover to the unions

Perhaps the '....attempting good industrial relations......' (on both sides!) might be worth trying...........

It sounds sufficiently 'novel' that it might totally confuse all the negotiators.

 

[EM2]

View from outside.

And a different one:

Today loads of people I know have been posting this photo about the tube strikes.
Today I am going to be one of those people who posts a politicized rant on Facebook. Hopefully my mum and all of you with the same opinion as me enjoy reading it.
While, as a doctor, I am very flattered to be thought of in such a favourable light - unfortunately like many of my perceived virtues this lovely table isn't completely true. The graphic design is also poor and I don't like the green bit, but that's probably less important.
That figure quoted for initial salary is pretty far from the truth. Thats the starting salary for an unbanded first year doctor. That means someone working 9-5 with no out of hours shifts, 40 hours a week total. Most doctors will indeed work 48 hours a week with night shifts included, but will be banded for the work and see an increase in their salary of 40-50%, leading to a starting annual salary of around £32 000 for those working 48 hours.
It's rare we work 12 days in a row, normally about once every 12 weeks and the majority of our work is in relatively social hours (discounting those valiant souls who work in A&E, but there's a reason that is a hugely undersubscribed speciality).
Tube drivers get a pretty good deal, you'd be mad to argue otherwise - but they also work less social hours. They've now been pushed against the wall and told they may need to work unlimited night shifts. If you did this to a doctor, under our current system - you'd be looking at a salary increase of around 80-100% in banding... and I still don't know many people who'd take that option given the negative impact on health, social life and general wellness of mind that night shifts have been proven time and time again to cause. If you were offered just £2000 to work overnight from now on, would you say yes?
Night shifts in a hospital need to exist. The 24 hour tube is a great idea and should go ahead, but not at the cost of the wellbeing and quality of life of those who tirelessly run it. A decent proposal needs to be put in that prioritises a safe and efficient overnight service, and the wellbeing of those tasked with running it.
In a few months, when proposals for 7 day working for medical professionals become a government priority you will see the same media response to the suggestion of industrial action from doctors. They will publish higher salaries than we earn, talk about the cushiest jobs in the NHS and inflate weekend death rates. An already stretched NHS will be stretched further and we will get a 7 day service with worse staffing and with worse staff training than the current 5 day service.
It would be lovely for us if everyone worked for our benefit 24-7 and demanded nothing more for it. Problem is, that means you need to as well. I'm glad tube drivers have a good salary. It's a good example of how a service can be run well and the needs of its staff prioritised. Yes I'm jealous, but if we take things away from them, will people raise the salaries for the rest of us? Or will it put us in a weaker negotiating position when they come for us?
However full disclosure... I got the overground today and it was fine.

 

[gavin]

London Underground drivers are to stage another 24-hour strike from 9.30pm on Wednesday, 5 August.

 

[Robertj21a]

London Underground drivers are to stage another 24-hour strike from 9.30pm on Wednesday, 5 August.

Excellent - another opportunity to see all those lovely vintage buses on the streets. Could anyone connected with the unions please ask if they could make these strikes 4-5 days long so that some of us could have a whole week to enjoy the 'festivities'

:roll:

 

[TheNewNo2]

The strike has taught me one thing - under the systems for delay costing, shutting down the entire subsurface railway is less expensive than shutting the Jubilee line!

 

[notadriver]

Excellent - another opportunity to see all those lovely vintage buses on the streets. Could anyone connected with the unions please ask if they could make these strikes 4-5 days long so that some of us could have a whole week to enjoy the 'festivities'



:roll:

Don't worry. The management will cave in to union demands and all will be back to normal. No need for 'scab bus drivers' in old polluting vehicles to poison London longer than is necessary :roll:

 

[chris11256]

I'd be annoyed if TFL simple cave into demands. I'd prefer a compromise on both sides.

I was wondering, would it be worth having a separate pool of part time night tube only drivers? There are some people who prefer night shifts. That way you avoid the masses of regular drivers who simply don't want to do it.

 

[Kristofferson]

Apparently the last "off the street" TOp recruitment drive didn't work out too well.

 

[chris11256]

Apparently the last "off the street" TOp recruitment drive didn't work out too well.

Really! I'd love the chance to be a train driver. When was the last time tfl tried external recruitment? I thought they unions had banned them from external driver recruitment.

 

[Domh245]

I can't remember the dates of the last external recruitment, but apparently, lots of people dropped out because they couldn't handle the work style (nights/structure/rules & regs) which is why they now choose to only recruit into the T/Op role internally (ie from stations, or less frequently from other tfl modes)

 

[A-driver]

Really! I'd love the chance to be a train driver. When was the last time tfl tried external recruitment? I thought they unions had banned them from external driver recruitment.

Lol. These kind of posts sum people poor attitudes towards unions up really. How can a union 'ban' anything?! Stupid choice of words showing a lack of thought and understanding.

 

[chris11256]

Lol. These kind of posts sum people poor attitudes towards unions up really. How can a union 'ban' anything?! Stupid choice of words showing a lack of thought and understanding.

Perhaps a tad personal insult don't you think!

I'd read several newspaper articles which explained that the lack of external driver recruitment was a union lead policy. When I have several different sources of information saying the same thing, I'm slightly inclined to believe it. Perhaps ban wasn't the best word, but doesn't alter what I was tying to say.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Perhaps a tad personal insult don't you think!

I'd read several newspaper articles which explained that the lack of external driver recruitment was a union lead policy. When I have several different sources of information saying the same thing, I'm slightly inclined to believe it. Perhaps ban wasn't the best word, but doesn't alter what I was tying to say.

Which newspapers?

The Times, Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Star and Evening Standard are all owned by individuals/corporations with a vested interest in destroying trade unions. As Mandy Rice Davies so eloquently put it - they would say that, wouldn't they.

A bit like coming to the conclusion that Jews, Blacks, Slavs and Gypsies were sub-human based on the drivel in the German press from 1933-45...

 

[chris11256]

Which newspapers?

The Times, Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Star and Evening Standard are all owned by individuals/corporations with a vested interest in destroying trade unions. As Mandy Rice Davies so eloquently put it - they would say that, wouldn't they.

A bit like coming to the conclusion that Jews, Blacks, Slavs and Gypsies were sub-human based on the drivel in the German press from 1933-45...

Point taken. Although I didn't mean specifically external staff in my original post. I'm sure there are people within tfl who prefer night shifts.

 

[fIIsion]

I'd be annoyed if TFL simple cave into demands. I'd prefer a compromise on both sides.

I was wondering, would it be worth having a separate pool of part time night tube only drivers? There are some people who prefer night shifts. That way you avoid the masses of regular drivers who simply don't want to do it.

The unions have made no demands, they are trying to find a compromise however management are refusing to acknowledge the concerns of staff, of how the proposed rosters are going to affect work/life balance.
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I want to add one very important point about this whole dispute. Night tube does not only affect drivers.

Reading the newspapers, social media, forums and speaking to people directly, everyone seems to believe this is a driver only dispute. I'm totally fed up with comments like "overpaid, greedy, lazy drivers"; "sack the lot"; "driverless trains, rant, rant".

Over 20,000 staff went on strike, however there are only approx. 3,500 drivers. Many signallers, controllers, train maintainers, engineers, station staff, even lower level managers are not happy with the night tube proposals.

This dispute is far more complex than what has been reported in the media, however train drivers are getting the most flack.

 

[A-driver]

The unions have made no demands, they are trying to find a compromise however management are refusing to acknowledge the concerns of staff, of how the proposed rosters are going to affect work/life balance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I want to add one very important point about this whole dispute. Night tube does not only affect drivers.



Reading the newspapers, social media, forums and speaking to people directly, everyone seems to believe this is a driver only dispute. I'm totally fed up with comments like "overpaid, greedy, lazy drivers"; "sack the lot"; "driverless trains, rant, rant".



Over 20,000 staff went on strike, however there are only approx. 3,500 drivers. Many signallers, controllers, train maintainers, engineers, station staff, even lower level managers are not happy with the night tube proposals.



This dispute is far more complex than what has been reported in the media, however train drivers are getting the most flack.

Drivers are the top earners so always get the flack. The press wouldn't get far with headlines about greedy tube cleaners on 16000PA striking over being forced to change working patterns etc. as that would get too much public sympathy.

On a slightly separate topic, after that silly document was posted about on social media (and this forum) comparing tube drivers to a small section of doctors (and selecting only bits of info to make a point!) it's very interesting to see the new dispute between the government and (as Jeremy hunt called it) the doctors union. Very similar to the tube dispute as it affects work life balance with more out of hours work and a complete re-design of contracts being put forward with little consultation from the workers it will affect (the workers being certain doctors and consultants in this case). Let's see if the press start treating them as they treated tube drivers as this dispute gathers pace. Greedy doctors refusing to work all hours to save our lives etc... Essentially it's exactly the same dispute.

 

[Mojo]

Drivers are the top earners so always get the flack. The press wouldn't get far with headlines about greedy tube cleaners on 16000PA striking over being forced to change working patterns etc. as that would get too much public sympathy.

Except on the Underground, they are not. There are plenty of non-management grades that pay more than Train Operator, including Power Control, Service Controller, Station Supervisor 1, the more senior grades of Service Operator (Signal Operator/signaller/whatever you want to call them), Technical Officer, and others.
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Lol. These kind of posts sum people poor attitudes towards unions up really. How can a union 'ban' anything?! Stupid choice of words showing a lack of thought and understanding.

It was agreed that LUL would only recruit for T/Ops from within the business as part of an agreement made with the unions, except in exceptional circumstances.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't remember the dates of the last external recruitment, but apparently, lots of people dropped out because they couldn't handle the work style (nights/structure/rules & regs) which is why they now choose to only recruit into the T/Op role internally (ie from stations, or less frequently from other tfl modes)

It was some time in the early 2000s, maybe 2001? I haven't heard that at all about lots of people dropping out.

 

[A-driver]

Except on the Underground, they are not. There are plenty of non-management grades that pay more than Train Operator, including Power Control, Service Controller, Station Supervisor 1, the more senior grades of Service Operator (Signal Operator/signaller/whatever you want to call them), Technical Officer, and others.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




It was agreed that LUL would only recruit for T/Ops from within the business as part of an agreement made with the unions, except in exceptional circumstances.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




It was some time in the early 2000s, maybe 2001? I haven't heard that at all about lots of people dropping out.

But train driving is something he press love to portray as easy. Grades like controller etc sound more technical and 'hard work'/skilled than train driver. Hence the press concentrate on drivers.

As for union agreements regarding recruitment, I'm not arguing that the policy dosnt exist but that it was a poor choice of language from the poster. The union havnt 'banned' anything. Agreements between management and staff side have been made that recruitment is kept internal. Very different from suggesting they banned it.