London Tube - Paying by Contactless Issues

[JamieL]

Hi all,

I took the tube from Euston Square to Paddington earlier this week (around 7pm). I normally use the ticket machines but both were defective at Euston Square so used contactless (Google Pay). Tapped in at Euston Square, tapped out at Paddington - all seemed to work fine. However, two issues have arisen. First, having checked my credit card statement, I was only charged £2.50 - is this right? The ticket is normally circa-£6 although normally I use the tube much earlier in the day. Second, I have tried using my Google Pay contactless twice since this in two different stores and it hasn't worked. This could just be bad luck but I can't recall many examples of it not working before and wondered if use on the TfL might have caused an issue?

 

[swt_passenger]

That’s the correct fare, £2.50 Oyster PAYG or Contactless single.

The cash fare on LU in this case is a completely different £6.30 - because they want to encourage use of the other means of payment. This sort of differential has been the case for years. Imagine what you might have saved…

But I’ve no idea about your other problem I’m afraid.

 

[martin2345uk]

£2.50 sounds right, it is MUCH cheaper to use contactless than buy paper tickets, is there a reason you've been using the ticked machines previously?

Don't see why tapping in and out would stop it working, I would put that down to coincidence...

 

[WizCastro197]

£2.50 is correct, as shown by the single fare finder:

Single fare finder

Find fares between any two stations in London

tfl.gov.uk

EDIT: I have realised the link just takes you to the input menu, not the results for the fares. So I have attached a screenshot instead.

 

[JamieL]

Thanks all. I have used printed tickets on the tube because I am old and didn't realise there was a benefit using contact less (which I have to admit is much faster as well). I don't use the Tube that often though, I normally walk between Euston and Paddington.

Must be coincidence in the card not working. Will try it another store tomorrow and if still playing up will speak to the bank.

 

[Vexed]

When you say Google Pay isn't working, is there a beep and the card machine denies the transaction or does it not even register?

And just checking you're holding the back of your phone against the card reader? As I have seen some people hold the screen towards the reader with varying results... Depends on how sensitive the reader is as to whether it would work. The NFC coils are on the back of the phone.

 

[JamieL]

When you say Google Pay isn't working, is there a beep and the card machine denies the transaction or does it not even register?

And just checking you're holding the back of your phone against the card reader? As I have seen some people hold the screen towards the reader with varying results... Depends on how sensitive the reader is as to whether it would work. The NFC coils are on the back of the phone.

Rather than the blue tick it comes up with a red exclamation mark and says "that didn't work" or "phone moved too quickly". It doesn't register on the machine at all. Its probably me - will try in a different store tomorrow.

 

[Hadders]

Google pay not working in a shop will just be a coincidence.

Using contactless to pay for transport in London has been the done thing for years. Much quicker, convenient and cheaper. Absolutely no need to use paper tickets.

 

[danm14]

I have used printed tickets on the tube because I am old

If you hold a Senior Railcard, you can buy an Oyster card (which costs £7) and have the Senior Railcard discount added to it at any London Underground station (the discount can't be added to a contactless card). This will give you 1/3 off off-peak fares (that's all journeys at weekends and on bank holidays, and any journey which begins outside of 6:30-9:30am and 4-7pm Monday to Friday - based on the time you pass through the barrier) - further reducing that £2.50 to £1.65.

If you hold a Disabled Person's Railcard, you can do the same, but the discount applies at all times, not just off-peak.

 

[flythetube]

When using Contactless, is there not a requirement that after x amount of contactless transactions you are then required to use a physical card and chip and pin for one transaction to confirm it’s you, this then re enables contactless for the next few transactions until you are required to do this again. Nothing to do with tapping in and out on the tube or bus as there isn’t a requirement to enter your pin at a gateline or on the bus!!

 

[Snow1964]

When using Contactless, is there not a requirement that after x amount of contactless transactions you are then required to use a physical card and chip and pin for one transaction to confirm it’s you, this then re enables contactless for the next few transactions until you are required to do this again. Nothing to do with tapping in and out on the tube or bus as there isn’t a requirement to enter your pin at a gateline or on the bus!!

Yes, When contactless limit jumped to £100, the trigger point was changed. I think I heard that limit was £300 or 8 transactions (whichever comes first)

However some banks have security checks for unusual transactions, so might request PIN earlier.

I think TfL only contacts the bank at end of day (strictly following morning after daily fare cap period ends) and gets one transaction. Presumably if it requires a PIN (or card is rejected) they don't get paid and you get a free ride (but not sure about this)

 

[_toommm_]

When using Contactless, is there not a requirement that after x amount of contactless transactions you are then required to use a physical card and chip and pin for one transaction to confirm it’s you, this then re enables contactless for the next few transactions until you are required to do this again. Nothing to do with tapping in and out on the tube or bus as there isn’t a requirement to enter your pin at a gateline or on the bus!!

It only takes a pre-authorisation of £0.10 at the start of the day, and doesn’t charge you until often the day after in my experience so you shouldn’t face issues, other than the card reader not reading your card properly or it being blocked for non-payment.

 

[Haywain]

When using Contactless, is there not a requirement that after x amount of contactless transactions you are then required to use a physical card and chip and pin for one transaction to confirm it’s you, this then re enables contactless for the next few transactions until you are required to do this again. Nothing to do with tapping in and out on the tube or bus as there isn’t a requirement to enter your pin at a gateline or on the bus!!

That doesn't apply when you use Google Pay or Apple Pay. There is no limit to the number of transactions you can make.

 

[JamieL]

Tried Google Pay this morning in a different store and all work fine so it must have been 'user error' in the previous stores. Apologies for the thread - it was obviously just coincidence - but at least I know to use contactless on the tube in future!

 

[Hadders]

When using Contactless, is there not a requirement that after x amount of contactless transactions you are then required to use a physical card and chip and pin for one transaction to confirm it’s you, this then re enables contactless for the next few transactions until you are required to do this again. Nothing to do with tapping in and out on the tube or bus as there isn’t a requirement to enter your pin at a gateline or on the bus!!

This doesn't apply in what is known as 'transit mode' which is what TfL operate.

For normal retail transactions there is a security feature built into contactless which requires a cardholder to validate their PIN every so often, I think each card issuer is a little different but it's generally around 6 transactions. When the contactless limit was £30 it was rare that someone did 6 consecutive contactless transactions, a routine chip & PIN transaction or ATM cash withdrawal automatically reset the count int he background. Now that the contactless limit is £100 there are fewer routine chip & PIN transactions and fewer ATM cash machine withdrawals which means card holders are required to validatetheir PIN more often.

 

[lookapigeon]

I would probably stick to using your physical card over using Google pay for contactless on public transport.

From casual observation I have noticed a lot of the double beeps in buses and tubes are people using cards loaded to their phones - perhaps they are not unlocked/properly set up/putting the right part of the phone to have optimum contact with the reader.

In any case it causes unnecessary holdups and I was in Waterloo yesterday and lots of LU trains chucking out with people trying to get through the gates, and there were a few faffing with their phones.

Don't get me wrong, I have some cards set up in my Google wallet in case I forget my wallet/jacket etc but I'd rather have my card get knocked to the ground by accident rather than replace the busted screen on my phone.

 

[Haywain]

I would probably stick to using your physical card over using Google pay for contactless on public transport.

From casual observation I have noticed a lot of the double beeps in buses and tubes are people using cards loaded to their phones - perhaps they are not unlocked/properly set up/putting the right part of the phone to have optimum contact with the reader.

In any case it causes unnecessary holdups and I was in Waterloo yesterday and lots of LU trains chucking out with people trying to get through the gates, and there were a few faffing with their phones.

Don't get me wrong, I have some cards set up in my Google wallet in case I forget my wallet/jacket etc but I'd rather have my card get knocked to the ground by accident rather than replace the busted screen on my phone.

I would far prefer to use Google Pay than faff about getting a physical card out of my wallet and replacing it after use. Having said that, on TfL I'll be using Oyster as I have a railcard.

 

[londonbridge]

That doesn't apply when you use Google Pay or Apple Pay. There is no limit to the number of transactions you can make.

Sorry, that’s incorrect. I work in retail convenience, if a customer is using contactless and it wants the PIN number the beep when they tap the card is different, the display on the card terminal says “insert, swipe or try another card”, and on my screen it says “please insert card”…..I have had numerous occasions when it’s asked for the PIN number when they are using their phone to tap. They then end up getting the card out and inserting it, but there’s been times when they’ve ended up having to leave their shopping because they have no cash and don’t have the physical card with them.

 

[bicbasher]

I would probably stick to using your physical card over using Google pay for contactless on public transport.

From casual observation I have noticed a lot of the double beeps in buses and tubes are people using cards loaded to their phones - perhaps they are not unlocked/properly set up/putting the right part of the phone to have optimum contact with the reader.

In any case it causes unnecessary holdups and I was in Waterloo yesterday and lots of LU trains chucking out with people trying to get through the gates, and there were a few faffing with their phones.

Don't get me wrong, I have some cards set up in my Google wallet in case I forget my wallet/jacket etc but I'd rather have my card get knocked to the ground by accident rather than replace the busted screen on my phone.

Another issue with Google Pay from my experience is that the Contactless website kept giving me different reference numbers for each transaction, which makes it harder to find the relevant journeys taken.

Since I've started using my physical card, no issues at all using PAYG and the website which works similar to if you have an Oyster card. Contactless simply works.

 

[Haywain]

Sorry, that’s incorrect. I work in retail convenience, if a customer is using contactless and it wants the PIN number the beep when they tap the card is different, the display on the card terminal says “insert, swipe or try another card”, and on my screen it says “please insert card”…..I have had numerous occasions when it’s asked for the PIN number when they are using their phone to tap. They then end up getting the card out and inserting it, but there’s been times when they’ve ended up having to leave their shopping because they have no cash and don’t have the physical card with them.

I have never been asked for a PIN or to use a physical card when using Google Pay and I'm not aware of anyone who has. I suppose there is a possibility that it happens if there isn’t actually money in the account - something which is, happily, unlikely to be a problem for me. But even that is unrelated to the number of transactions.

 

[bicbasher]

I have never been asked for a PIN or to use a physical card when using Google Pay and I'm not aware of anyone who has. I suppose there is a possibility that it happens if there isn’t actually money in the account - something which is, happily, unlikely to be a problem for me. But even that is unrelated to the number of transactions.

I have, especially when using the self supermarket tills where I've had to put in my phone pin.

 

[_toommm_]

Sorry, that’s incorrect. I work in retail convenience, if a customer is using contactless and it wants the PIN number the beep when they tap the card is different, the display on the card terminal says “insert, swipe or try another card”, and on my screen it says “please insert card”…..I have had numerous occasions when it’s asked for the PIN number when they are using their phone to tap. They then end up getting the card out and inserting it, but there’s been times when they’ve ended up having to leave their shopping because they have no cash and don’t have the physical card with them.

I work in retail too and have never been asked for the card PIN when using Apple Pay. I'm that confident I NEVER carry my physical card.

 

[Haywain]

Sorry, that’s incorrect. I work in retail convenience, if a customer is using contactless and it wants the PIN number the beep when they tap the card is different, the display on the card terminal says “insert, swipe or try another card”, and on my screen it says “please insert card”…..I have had numerous occasions when it’s asked for the PIN number when they are using their phone to tap. They then end up getting the card out and inserting it, but there’s been times when they’ve ended up having to leave their shopping because they have no cash and don’t have the physical card with them.

This could be the reason:

Google Pay has no limit on the number or value of in-store transactions. However, stores themselves may have a Google Pay contactless limit – in the same way that they will often have a £100 limit for standard contactless card transactions.

 

[londonbridge]

I’m not sure if we have a Google pay limit but I can try and find out.

 

[AlterEgo]

I work in retail too and have never been asked for the card PIN when using Apple Pay. I'm that confident I NEVER carry my physical card.

I’ve never ever been asked for my card PIN. I almost always carry my physical card.

 

[lookapigeon]

Another issue with Google Pay from my experience is that the Contactless website kept giving me different reference numbers for each transaction, which makes it harder to find the relevant journeys taken.

Since I've started using my physical card, no issues at all using PAYG and the website which works similar to if you have an Oyster card. Contactless simply works.

This is because Google/Apple pay uses a virtual card number that is linked to but completely separate to your physical card PAN. To a merchant it appears as a different card number to that of your physical one.

The virtual card number is never shown fully (unless you happen to get a merchant copy of a receipt from a shop that uses one of those handheld stand alone card machines). So even the cardholder won't know it.

It's why TFL ask you to always use the same device when tapping in/out.

I would far prefer to use Google Pay than faff about getting a physical card out of my wallet and replacing it after use. Having said that, on TfL I'll be using Oyster as I have a railcard.

Each to their own I suppose. I always have my card ready anyway when I pay for something/board bus/exit/enter tube so it's hardly a faff so I can just pay/exit/enter without having to hold others up.

Considering each card has its own 'token' I wonder why such railcard discounts cannot be tied to the bank card rather than having to have an Oyster card.

 

[MikeWh]

Considering each card has its own 'token' I wonder why such railcard discounts cannot be tied to the bank card rather than having to have an Oyster card.

The problem is RPIs being told that a railcard discount is set and they should ask to see the card. Nothing can be written to the bank card or device.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

I think TfL only contacts the bank at end of day (strictly following morning after daily fare cap period ends) and gets one transaction. Presumably if it requires a PIN (or card is rejected) they don't get paid and you get a free ride (but not sure about this)

You certainly don't get a free ride!

It only takes a pre-authorisation of £0.10 at the start of the day, and doesn’t charge you until often the day after in my experience so you shouldn’t face issues, other than the card reader not reading your card properly or it being blocked for non-payment.

The pre-authorisation occurs at the start of a day, but isn't usually repeated every day if used regularly.

If your touches up to about 1am make complete journeys then you will be charged then. If something is missing they will usually delay a day to allow any late reporting readers to catch up.

 

[miklcct]

The problem is RPIs being told that a railcard discount is set and they should ask to see the card. Nothing can be written to the bank card or device.

How do similar systems in other countries work then?

 

[MikeWh]

How do similar systems in other countries work then?

I don't know of any similar systems. Can you point to one where there is a discount entitlement available with contactless payments?

 

[Deerfold]

If your touches up to about 1am make complete journeys then you will be charged then. If something is missing they will usually delay a day to allow any late reporting readers to catch up.

Do they not wait until the travel day is up at 0429?