London Tramlink - is a second tap required for transfers?

[gravitystorm]

An example journey would be from Wimbledon to New Addington, which requires a transfer, somewhere in Croydon where the routes overlap (e.g. at East Croydon or Sandilands).

I'm aware that the Hopper fare means that, when changing trams, you *can* tap a reader at your transfer stop, and you won't be charged for the second journey. But my question is - are you *required* to tap at the transfer, or is it optional? I've struggled to find any definitive information online, and there's nothing (that I can find) on the TfL website that mentions what you should do if your tram journey involves a transfer.

The question is mostly for peace of mind - I've often changed trams and assumed it was treated as one journey, and the second tap wasn't strictly required, but perhaps I've been wrong on this?

I'm also aware that if, for example, you take a bus just before the tram, the timing of any transfer tap might then be important (and you might want to change as early as possible, and then immediate tap for the transfer, if your bus+tram+tram journey exceeds an hour), but let's ignore that for now.

 

[Edvid]

If you're using PAYG, then you are required to tap in every time you board a tram.

How to touch in and out​

Buses and trams​

Touch your contactless card, device, or Oyster card on the yellow card reader at the start of your journey.

You don't need to touch out at the end of your journey. If you do, you may pay more than you need to.

 

[Horizon22]

If you're using PAYG, then you are required to tap in every time you board a tram.

I don't think it quite says that and the issue here is what constitutes a "journey"; if it starts at Wimbledon, it could be interpreted it has not ended at East Croydon (as per the OPs route) and is a continuation of the same "journey" to New Addington. Which is why I guess they are seeking clarity.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you're using PAYG, then you are required to tap in every time you board a tram.

The quote you have provided states that you must tap in at the start of a journey. A journey can involve more than one tram.

TfL treat their trams as buses on rails; the tram fare is the same as the bus fare, and the hopper applies to buses and trams. If you board a second bus as part of one journey you do have to touch in again. If TfL apply the same logic to trams then you should touch in again at the interchange tram stop.

But this is different to how it works on the tube or rail, where you touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end, no matter how many changes you make to complete the journey. That's also how it works on Manchester's Metrolink tram system.

Sadly there isn't anything on the TfL website that says what you must do if you are changing between two trams as part of one journey. May be worth an email to TfL, see what they say?

 

[redreni]

If you're using PAYG, then you are required to tap in every time you board a tram.

This is as clear as mud.

The history of this might be illuminating.

The whole point of the Hopper fare was to address the complaint that, prior to its existence, people were double-charged for single bus journeys where a direct service wasn't available. What campaigners wanted was a system of transfers, like you would get in a North American grid city such as Toronto, where somebody going North East will typically take a Northbound bus, obtain a paper transfer and use it to continue their journey on an Eastbound bus. But a paper transfer ticket in Toronto would state the bus route number and direction, and the driver would tear it off at a particular place which would indicate the time of issue. They next driver would accept the transfer on an intersecting route, but it would not be accepted on the same route, so you couldn't (for example) use it to make a return trip. What we got - the hopper fare - was actually a slightly more generous arrangement than the one described above, inasmuch as it also allows return trips to be charged as a single journey.

I would say it is implicit within TfL's decision to introduce the hopper fare, that they accept people make journeys that may involve more than one bus.

In the case of trams, however, it's worth asking what happened before the hopper fare was introduced? I know on buses, people were simply double-charged if their journey required use of two buses. I do not know, however, whether people were double-charged if they had to change trams? Personally I doubt it. I would guess that tapping in on one tram then transferring to another without tapping again would have been considered fine, as long as it was a single journey.

If I'm right about that, we can ask whether the introduction of the hopper fare has changed anything? I don't think it has, necessarily. I suspect it was only done so as to ensure mixed-mode bus+tram or tram+bus journeys would be charged as a single journey as well, whereas previously people would have been double-charged. I doubt it was intended to introduce a new requirement to tap when changing trams.

I agree it would be interesting to see what TfL say. If anyone knows how tram transfers worked before the hopper fare existed, that might shed some light also?

 

[Edvid]

This quote from the bus & tram fares page...

Hopper fare​

Pay as you go at adult rate on buses and trams and our Hopper fare gives you unlimited journeys for £1.75, made within one hour of touching in. Hopper fare also applies to discounted rate travel.

Touch in using the same card or device on all journeys and you get our Hopper fare automatically.

If you travel on Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line, IFS Cloud Cable Car or River Bus services in between Hopper journeys, you'll be charged a standard fare. The Hopper fare will still apply to any further bus and tram journeys made within one hour of first touching in.

If your Oyster card has a negative balance after your first journey, the Hopper fare won't apply. You'll need to top up your card within one hour of touching in to be eligible.

...refers to unlimited "journeys" (plural), which all but implies 1 journey = 1 bus or tram; granted, this isn't made clear within the previous quote.

There's no bus-only reference to always touching in either.

In the case of trams, however, it's worth asking what happened before the hopper fare was introduced? I know on buses, people were simply double-charged if their journey required use of two buses. I do not know, however, whether people were double-charged if they had to change trams? Personally I doubt it. I would guess that tapping in on one tram then transferring to another without tapping again would have been considered fine, as long as it was a single journey.

If I'm right about that, we can ask whether the introduction of the hopper fare has changed anything? I don't think it has, necessarily. I suspect it was only done so as to ensure mixed-mode bus+tram or tram+bus journeys would be charged as a single journey as well, whereas previously people would have been double-charged. I doubt it was intended to introduce a new requirement to tap when changing trams.

I can't be sure one way or the other, but I would be surprised if the touch-in requirements for bus transfers were more onerous than the equivalent for tram transfers. Especially with the bus-specific "one more journey" allowance for those with insufficient PAYG credit.

 

[cool110]

If I'm right about that, we can ask whether the introduction of the hopper fare has changed anything? I don't think it has, necessarily. I suspect it was only done so as to ensure mixed-mode bus+tram or tram+bus journeys would be charged as a single journey as well, whereas previously people would have been double-charged. I doubt it was intended to introduce a new requirement to tap when changing trams.

That actually existed before the hopper fare, certain " tram feeder" bus routes allowed a free transfer to or from the trams (which are treated as one big bus route). On the technical side the first form of the hopper that only allowed one transfer was just enabling that system for all bus routes, (including to the same route).

I agree it would be interesting to see what TfL say. If anyone knows how tram transfers worked before the hopper fare existed, that might shed some light also?

Given the nature of the above system, a touch when changing trams back then would cause a double-charge.

 

[MikeWh]

Given the nature of the above system, a touch when changing trams back then would cause a double-charge.

Unfortunately it's only a recollection of a conversation I had with an inspector ages ago, but the tram touch in was valid for an hour and subsequent tram touches within that hour would be ignored. If your card was inspected on the tram it would be valid if touched in within the previous hour.

 

[island]

Unfortunately it's only a recollection of a conversation I had with an inspector ages ago, but the tram touch in was valid for an hour and subsequent tram touches within that hour would be ignored. If your card was inspected on the tram it would be valid if touched in within the previous hour.

Yes. If an inspection reveals an Oyster card hasn't been touched-in in the last hour, it would come up invalid, even though it might have been free to touch-in again due to the transfer rule.

 

[LA50041]

Unfortunately it's only a recollection of a conversation I had with an inspector ages ago, but the tram touch in was valid for an hour and subsequent tram touches within that hour would be ignored. If your card was inspected on the tram it would be valid if touched in within the previous hour.

just thinking about a journey that I occasionally make, Hypothetically, What would happen if a passenger tapped in at Wimbledon travelling to Beckenham junction and literally just missed the first tram and was inspected between Birkbeck and Beckenham Junction. With the journey time being 52 minutes it could easily take 3-4 minutes to get to the platform and a 10 minute wait so could take over an hour. Would there be a tolerance built in?