London to Sicily

[liboria]

My family emigrated to Sicily in 1961. All I remember was leaving London by train in Winter with the whole family in one carriage. The rest of the journey remains a blur but I do remember border police boarding one of the trains and looking at passports. It took us about 4 or five days to get to Sicily and we didn't stop overnight but slept on the trains - not on sleepers, we couldn't afford it. Can anyone help me to put this journey together. The most I've come up with is the Victoria to Paris night sleeper which may have been a steam train. Thanks, Lydia

 

[Busaholic]

I can only relate my own experience of going from London to Rome by train on a school trip in 1964. We too left from Victoria and made the journey on the one train, also in non-sleeping compartments. I remember we went round the outskirts of Paris, and it was I think early Sunday morning when we did that. Some of us had great fun (we were teenagers!) of demanding 'passports please' in a dodgy Italian accent in the sleeping car bit - we got admonished and gave them all back. You know, I'd assumed it was electric all the way, but the Merchant Navy class of steam loco did still operate the 'Golden Arrow' well into the 1960s, so now I'm not so sure. You will see from my name I am more of a bus man.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The Night Ferry (London-Paris) went over to electrics with the 1959 Kent Coast electrification according to Kent Rail at http://www.kentrail.org.uk/london_victoria_8.htm so probably not steam in 1961. SEMG has some Night Ferry details at http://www.semgonline.com/misc/named_09.html, with a typical timetable, arriving in Paris around 9am.

For the remainder of the journey... it would have taken most of a day to get across France into N Italy, Turin or Milan, and even today, the sleeper train from Milan to Reggio di Calabria for the Sicily ferry departs at 1544 and arrives at 0805, for a 16h20 journey (train ICN 795).

It took me 24 hours to get from Kent to Turin in 1981, including "passports please" at the France-Italy border (Modane?) in the early hours of the morning.

Anyone got any old European timetables? Maybe the people at http://www.europeanrailtimetable.co.uk or http://www.seat61.com might be interested in your story if you can get any more details, as it would provide an interesting comparison to today's journeys.


For comparison, if I use the DB planning site, and type in London to Reggio di Calabria for tomorrow, I can get a journey time of 23h20 end to end, with an 0540 departure from London!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I'm actually doing this trip in April, tickets all booked. Eurostar to Paris and TGV to Milano followed by a night train to Roma, a full day there then another night train to Catania.

On the way back day train to Napoli and a night there then evening Red Arrow to Milano, Thello sleeper to Paris then an afternoon Euorstar and VEC train home.

Would love to see any pictures people have of the trip in the past.

 

[30907]

Despite Busaholic's memory, the Night Ferry only ever carried sleepers across the channel, ordinary passengers had to board the ferry on foot (and for a bit extra there was dormitory type accommodation for the 4 hour crossing - this was when the old Dunkerque berth was in use, I have a berth ticket somewhere).

There were trains or portions from Calais/Boulogne (seats couchettes and sleepers) that went round the East side of Paris; I don't recall the Dunkerque service doing that but haven't got access to a 60s timetable till the weekend. There was Train DB/BD which ran Dunkerque - Basel, but that wouldn't be a normal route for Rome.

Both for Rome and Sicily, the normal route would have been via Paris, with a morning train from Victoria feeding into various evening departures from Paris, then either the Mont Cenis route via Modane or the Simpson route through Switzerland.

There was also Train CM/MC via Basel and the Gotthard route to Milan (and an equivalent from Osteende via Brussels, which was a few miles shorter and therefore cheaper). Again that involved a morning departure from London.

One way and another I feel sure the OP and Busaholic were foot passengers on the ferry.

Steam or electric?

In early 1961, most regular boat trains were still steam hauled via Tonbridge, only the Night Ferry being an E 5000 (it saved double heading, but meant running via Chatham), though relief trains to Dover could be formed of CEP stock and sent that way.

On the French side, the service was steam worked right through to Paris in the early 1960s, and as far as Amiens until (?) early 1969.

 

[eastwestdivide]

On the Timetable World website (http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=9&section_id=3) I found a German 1962 timetable showing international connections (click the link E7 Basel-Italy and zoom in):
an 0850 Milano-Bologna-Firenze-Roma arrive 1500 "Rapido", 1st class only express, with a connection to Messina arrive 0005 and Palermo 0726...
and a 1300 Milano-Bologna-Firenze-Roma arrive 2000 express, with a connection to Messina arrive 0825 and Palermo 1335.

So you're looking at about 24 hours travelling from Milan to Sicily, depending on where in Sicily your destination is.

It appears that the National Railway Museum has a 1967 Thomas Cook international timetable, on http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/archiveandlibrarycollections/Timetables.aspx and click the link Bradshaw and other continental railway guides list for a PDF listing of what they have available.

My own 1963 Southern Region timetable shows the Paris Night Ferry service as follows:
train: Victoria dep 2100, Dover Marine arrive 2230 (restaurant for sleeping car passengers, buffet for non-sleeping car passengers, 1st-class only sleeping cars between London and Paris)
boat: depart Dover 2330 arrive Dunkerque 0320 (0420 European time)
train: Dunkerque dep 0500 Paris Nord arr 0840
i.e. the 2nd class passengers had to get off the train at Dover and get on another one at Dunkerque.
2nd class single London-Dunkerque-Paris £4-19-0 (4 pounds 19 shillings)

No other info in that timetable, other than an advert for "Continental Services" including the 0900 from Victoria via Dover for "Paris, Riviera, Switzerland, Italy etc.", which I'd very much like to hear as an announcement!

Yet more info for comparison: my own 1978 BR timetable "International" supplement shows a table F London and Paris to Firenze, Roma and Napoli, including a through train Paris to Napoli, depart 0817, arrive 1028 the next day, via Torino, Genova, Pisa, Roma.
Also a connection from London as follows 1100 Victoria, 1300 boat from Dover, 1640 from Boulogne with through coaches (seated and sleeping) from Boulogne to Roma (the ROME EXPRESS) arrive 1320 the next day, also via Paris Gare de Lyon, Torino, Genova, Pisa. Connection to Napoli arrive 1553.

Hope all that gives you an idea of what was possible in days gone by. There was a surprising number of through coaches from the "mainland" side of the English Channel to parts of Europe - Calais to Innsbruck anyone? Hoek van Holland to Warsaw/Moscow?

 

[30907]

The second of those trains, or Train MS (Siracusa?) which is shown as having through carriages, would have connected comfortably with the services from the Channel Ports and Paris I mentioned, so we are talking 3 days and 2 nights as the basic journey time,or 3 nights and 2 days using a night boat.

My 1968 Swiss timetable has some relevant times, but not the key Paris - Rome ones.

 

[Busaholic]

Despite Busaholic's memory, the Night Ferry only ever carried sleepers across the channel, ordinary passengers had to board the ferry on foot (and for a bit extra there was dormitory type accommodation for the 4 hour crossing - this was when the old Dunkerque berth was in use, I have a berth ticket somewhere).

There were trains or portions from Calais/Boulogne (seats couchettes and sleepers) that went round the East side of Paris; I don't recall the Dunkerque service doing that but haven't got access to a 60s timetable till the weekend. There was Train DB/BD which ran Dunkerque - Basel, but that wouldn't be a normal route for Rome.

Both for Rome and Sicily, the normal route would have been via Paris, with a morning train from Victoria feeding into various evening departures from Paris, then either the Mont Cenis route via Modane or the Simpson route through Switzerland.

There was also Train CM/MC via Basel and the Gotthard route to Milan (and an equivalent from Osteende via Brussels, which was a few miles shorter and therefore cheaper). Again that involved a morning departure from London.

One way and another I feel sure the OP and Busaholic were foot passengers on the ferry.

Steam or electric?

In early 1961, most regular boat trains were still steam hauled via Tonbridge, only the Night Ferry being an E 5000 (it saved double heading, but meant running via Chatham), though relief trains to Dover could be formed of CEP stock and sent that way.

On the French side, the service was steam worked right through to Paris in the early 1960s, and as far as Amiens until (?) early 1969.

On reflection, I think the British part of my journey was just on good old Southern Electric on the normal service to Dover Marine.The 'continental' part started at Calais: the reason I am positive about this is I can remember the Latin master who led the school trip saying to us beforehand (bear in mind this was fifty years ago) 'you may think wogs begin at Calats, but don't forget you will be the wogs there'. Wogs was not being used in a racial sense, only of foreigners generally. As kids we still played anti-German games and the comics were still mostly harking back to the Second World War. Also, I am positive I have never been to or through Dunkerque, a name which still resonated strongly then. It would have been the Eastern side of Paris we passed through, because I was most disappointed to get only the teeniest sight of the tip of the Eiffel Tower. It would be another eleven years before I got to see it close up.

 

[30907]

Now located the Swiss timetable.

The afternoon departure from London (1530BST via Folkestone) carried through coaches from Calais on the Direct Orient Express as far as Venice and Trieste, being worked round the Petite Ceinture from Nord to Lyon.
I suspect Calais - Rome via Paris would have gone on the morning Dover-Calais service (the Golden Arrow then), but have no information.
Via Basel, train FY (not CM, sorry) had through coaches to Rome, also connecting with the Arrow.

The regular boat trains on the SR, bar the Night Ferry, were still all in steam timings in 1961 - electrification via Tonbridge went live in June but the new timetable came in September. The ordinary Kent Coast electrics terminated at Dover Priory in those days.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevs_trains/1536399570/in/photolist-niCUFS-psNXMY-5KM8WL-ay7CsC-3kLs4L-eddgPU-31XmYQ-5Psvj6-p8WpuB-oRs4kU-dvxb2H-e3qVEj-oDseD1-owtph3-oxZkD6-oeNpBF-oyg1pT-ow2wDb-dfTcw4-oeMAur-7mCVXb-7moq4e-dfTcuR-ow3W7Q-4Ah56t-9RPa8e-fEeCF5-71zcY3-qm9V8P-9vP4ED-c6qezm-atDdpd-bWASDo-c6qehd-anp1pZ-ahQoio-owiMxC-odpPck-ouC6x8-e53Hvs-owFjXt-8UPc2V-2gMxZS-4JU6wC-osU15u-odqYGF-ovEXF6-r8w1wC-odqJT6-ouFhzT

Nice shot of the down 'Arrow' at Folkestone Jcn 7th August 1961, 8 weeks after the inauguration of electric haulage.

I only have the much latter (post 'Arrow' and via Boulogne) Summer 1981 timings for the 'Napoli Express' but it was a similar pattern over many years.

London Victoria 1100
Dover Western Docks (Marine) 1222 / 1300
Boulogne Maritime 1550 / 1645
Paris Nord 1922 / 1943
Paris Lyon 2006 / 2039
Napoli Centrale 1718

(via Modane, Torino and Roma)

Connecting through service to Sicily

Napoli Centrale 1942
Palermo 0825

(via Straits of Messina Train Ferry)