London to Salisbury

[dojo]

Hi

A quick disclaimer - I don't pretend to have mountains of knowledge on routeing and fare rules and whatever (hence this post) so be nice!

Anyhow, I'm currently looking at a train leaving Waterloo this Thursday (7th) at 7.50am to Salisbury costing me £21.25 with a 16-25 railcard. Now if I look at a train from "London" (Waterloo) to Bristol (SWT+FGW) with a change at Salisbury, the same train costs £7.25. I read often about invalidating tickets by splitting journeys and whatever - would I be wrong to think this is an exception?

Mercy buckets.

 

[dan_atki]

Indeed, the £7.25 is an Advance fare from Waterloo to Bristol which would not allow you to legitimately leave the system at Salisbury.

 

[dojo]

Much appreciated (:

 

[johnb]

...however, as you have a booked change at Salisbury, in practice the ticket will be entirely usable to Salisbury without any prospect of sanction/endorsement/etc.

(if you got off the train at any intermediate stop, then you'd stand a fair chance of being charged a heavy supplement).

 

[dan_atki]

...however, as you have a booked change at Salisbury, in practice the ticket will be entirely usable to Salisbury without any prospect of sanction/endorsement/etc.

The only legitimate exit from Salisbury station with such a ticket would be the connecting FGW service as shown on the accompanying reservation.

 

[Chris B]

Indeed, if you were checked on your exit from Salisbury station, you risk being charged the full Anytime single fare from London. You wouldn't be allowed to 'downgrade' your advance ticket, and doing that would invalidate your ticket by travelling 'short' and you would have to buy another full price ticket (no railcard discount available either)

I wouldn't risk it for that distance.....

 

[royaloak]

He is changing trains at Salisbury, there is no legitimate reason to leave the station.

 

[Chris B]

Read the initial post again....

"Anyhow, I'm currently looking at a train leaving Waterloo this Thursday (7th) at 7.50am to Salisbury costing me £21.25 with a 16-25 railcard"

 

[royaloak]

I did read it!
The ticket he was on about buying was the £7-25 one to Bristol and leaving at Salisbury, so he wants to get off at Salisbury, which he would not be able to as that ticket is change at Salisbury NOT leave the station at Salisbury.

 

[thefab444]

Best thing to do would be to buy the Bristol advance single at £7.25, and a Tisbury/Dean - Salisbury SDS at £2.45 (buy this from the ticket office at Waterloo), which will allow you through the barriers at Salisbury station.

 

[Chris B]

I did read it!
The ticket he was on about buying was the £7-25 one to Bristol and leaving at Salisbury, so he wants to get off at Salisbury, which he would not be able to as that ticket is change at Salisbury NOT leave the station at Salisbury.

Oh-oh. He wants to go to Salisbury - hence that first ticket to Salisbury.

Then he's seen that he can get a Bristol ticket cheaper & is thinking about stopping short at Salisbury.

Celia's got it - but I don't think we ought to be recommending fraud.

 

[Drsatan]

There are ticket barriers at Salisbury anyway so you wouldn't be able to leave the station with a London-Bristol AP ticket. The barriers were only installed in June/July 2009.

 

[Chris B]

Which is why Celia made her suggestion above!

 

[moonrakerz]

I believe that the £7.25 fare is only available for the "through" SWT trains to Temple Meads. 0920, 1220 and 1920 ex Waterloo.
The OP would not be able to use any other train to get to Salisbury. SWT don't issue seat reservations with these tickets, but do tie you to a train.

The SWT site isn't working at the moment on those advance fares - presume they are updating it, the map is still showing the 2009 prices !

 

[yorkie]

You are permitted to leave the barriers (if there are any) in order to use station facilities (if there are any) at the non-paid for side of the station.

However someone could potentially follow you around these facilities and if you then leave the station premises, they could in theory charge you a new ticket from Waterloo to Salisbury at full Anytime fare with no discount.

You will have to assess these risks yourself.

 

[dan_atki]

You are permitted to leave the barriers (if there are any) in order to use station facilities (if there are any) at the non-paid for side of the station.

However someone could potentially follow you around these facilities and if you then leave the station premises, they could in theory charge you a new ticket from Waterloo to Salisbury at full Anytime fare with no discount.

You will have to assess these risks yourself.

I suspected you'd say that. The only facility on the unpaid side of the barriers is the ticket office and indeed only about 10 square metres of the 'concourse' are now on the unpaid side of the barriers at Salisbury. Any barrier staff would clearly see you leaving the station.

 

[Mushtimushta]

I'm a bit shocked that Celia feels it's OK to recommend that the original poster deliberately defraud South West Trains by buying a combination of tickets to get through the gates at each end of the journey.

 

[thefab444]

I'm a bit shocked that Celia feels it's OK to recommend that the original poster deliberately defraud South West Trains by buying a combination of tickets to get through the gates at each end of the journey.

It's all about Risk of being caught Vs Amount of money saved.

Saving £10 is definately worth the Very Low risk of being caught using those two tickets unlawfully. In fact the only thing you are doing that isn't permitted is alighting at Salisbury, so the only risk is that the guard remembers your ticket is an advance through to Bristol (unlikely), and then spots you getting off the train (unlikely), AND thinks it's worth his while to chase after you (very unlikely).

Once you're safely off the train, using the Dean/Tisbury - Salisbury SDS to operate the barriers is in NO way defrauding SWT, in fact, they're making an additional £2.45 from you!

 

[yorkie]

I'm a bit shocked that Celia feels it's OK to recommend that the original poster deliberately defraud South West Trains by buying a combination of tickets to get through the gates at each end of the journey.

Has a court ruled that ending a journey short is defrauding? I've not heard of such a case, and I believe it's just speculation on your part. I can counter that argument anyway by stating that the TOCs defraud thousands of customers daily by overcharging them!

When car drivers are told they are defrauding petrol stations by travelling shorter distances than they originally intended to travel and therefore paying for more petrol than they needed, then I'll believe that a rail customer doing the same thing is defrauding the TOCs.

 

[glynn80]

Has a court ruled that ending a journey short is defrauding? I've not heard of such a case, and I believe it's just speculation on your part.

I think we can state for sure than ending your journey short is definitely invalid. The terms and conditions that passengers agree to when they purchase their Advance fare and which are listed on the National Rail website (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html) state the following:

Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

So finishing your journey at Salisbury would certainly be prohibited and the wording above is watertight with regards to that. Whether this could be construed as "fraud" is a different story and it is the circumstances of the situation which would determine that (obviously that is for a court to decide).

I can counter that argument anyway by stating that the TOCs defraud thousands of customers daily by overcharging them!

Just because Party A defrauds Party B does not mean that a third Party C can legally justify then defrauding Party A.

 

[royaloak]

The easy answer is to ask SWT to put the price of the Bristol ticket UP to more than the Salisbury one then you will be happy Yorkie, I mean why should some people benefit from cheap fares its not like the company is trying to increase their market share on the Bristol route is it!

And as for your fuel example I cant remember having to enter into a contract with the petrol station to drive X number of miles a day, because by buying the ticket to Bristol you have entered into a contract with the train company to travel to Bristol which makes your example pretty pointless really.

Of course if it works both ways, why shouldnt it I mean lets be fair, if you buy a ticket to Bristol and the train fails at Salisbury, SWT could kick you off there with no questions because you were getting a more expensive journey than the one you paid for, fair is fair, or do you consider it to be a contract now when it suits you but not in the OP example, I mean it is either a contract or it isnt, you cant have it both ways!

 

[yorkie]

The easy answer is to ask SWT to put the price of the Bristol ticket UP to more than the Salisbury one then you will be happy Yorkie, I mean why should some people benefit from cheap fares its not like the company is trying to increase their market share on the Bristol route is it!

I'm not really interested in that. Yes, it's obvious why SWT are doing it, and the same applies to XC with Brum-Edinburgh.

And as for your fuel example I cant remember having to enter into a contract with the petrol station to drive X number of miles a day,

And you know that if they did it would not be enforceable.

because by buying the ticket to Bristol you have entered into a contract with the train company to travel to Bristol which makes your example pretty pointless really.

Not really, my point is that it would be considered a breach of human rights if we told car drivers they could not stop short! Imagine the scene Jeremy Clarkson would cause! You'd have petitions, protests, and it would be unenforceable anyway.

Of course if it works both ways, why shouldnt it I mean lets be fair, if you buy a ticket to Bristol and the train fails at Salisbury, SWT could kick you off there with no questions because you were getting a more expensive journey than the one you paid for, fair is fair,

You know that's a load of twaddle. That's like saying someone should be forced to eat every crisp packet in a multipack of crisps BUT if one of the crisp packets contains dodgy crisps you could be told tough because you paid less than if you had only bought 5 individual packets.

or do you consider it to be a contract now when it suits you but not in the OP example, I mean it is either a contract or it isnt, you cant have it both ways!

The contract is to offer the service, so it must be available. If the customer decides to get off early, you can't imprison them. I'd like to see someone try to imprison someone on a train if they feel unwell, if they did you can be sure they'd go the way of Ian Morbin. Guaranteed. And they'd deserve it.

If I buy a meal at a restaurant, it is ludicrous to say that I must consume every little bite yet and that if I can leave part of it then the equivalent scenario is that the restaurant can simply not provide part of it.

Don't forget that the right to break your journey or cut short is in fact a right that we have in the NCoC. It is only with Advance tickets that this right is not available. That means you are, at worst, breaking an unenforceable condition of a ticket, that's hardly going to count as committing fraud! The mere suggestion of it is laughable. The TOC will no doubt be told that they are wasting court time in the incredibly unlikely event of them attempting it. Anyone who is unwell or had suffered a bereavement or if an emergency cropped up and they were forced on to Bristol would surely be able to sue due to their human rights being breached and they'd have a very good chance of success for unlawful imprisonment I'd say.

Of course, Basil Fawlty would disagree and so would any like-minded individuals. They have no place in any customer facing role.

 

[royaloak]

Of course, Basil Fawlty would disagree and so would any like-minded individuals. They have no place in any customer facing role.

And down to the personal insults as normal :roll: boring boring boring

 

[yorkie]

And down to the personal insults as normal :roll: boring boring boring

I'm not saying you are minded like Basil Fawlty, are you? And even if you are, where is the insult?

 

[clagmonster]

Don't forget that the right to break your journey or cut short is in fact a right that we have in the NCoC. It is only with Advance tickets that this right is not available. That means you are, at worst, breaking an unenforceable condition of a ticket, that's hardly going to count as committing fraud! The mere suggestion of it is laughable. The TOC will no doubt be told that they are wasting court time in the incredibly unlikely event of them attempting it. Anyone who is unwell or had suffered a bereavement or if an emergency cropped up and they were forced on to Bristol would surely be able to sue due to their human rights being breached and they'd have a very good chance of success for unlawful imprisonment I'd say.

The NCoC states:
"You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used."
This clearly states that for certain tickets, the rights of break of journey, or ending short may not apply to certain types of ticket, in which case this will be made clear in the train companies notices and publications.
If you purchase the ticket from a booking office, you will be given a card which states that stopping short is not allowed.
If booking over the internet, the ticket conditions on the South West Trains website clearly state:
"You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
This exact text also appears on the National Rail website, and to me seems to be clear.
To get out of the station, you would need to pay an excess fare. Those with FRPP access will be able to confirm what that would be.

 

[tony_mac]

It does say

in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

but they generally don't, which is one argument why it is unenforceable.
I would also argue, as it is potentially an important term that is not obvious, it should be specifically pointed out to customers, and not just mentioned in the small print.

Do they really give out a card with this information for all advance bookings at stations?

The information given on thetrainline says 'Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.'

Which certainly does not make it clear that you cannot end your journey early.

 

[glynn80]

The do make this clear in their notices and publications on the National Rail website.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't know if a court would consider that to be adequate - but I guess it's academic unless / until somebody ends up there.
Ideally any posters / leaflets should also have the restrictions printed on them.

It's certainly easy enough to buy a ticket without ever seeing the restriction.
You do see the line 'Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.' before payment - therefore it would be reasonable to assume that was the entirety of the restriction and not go looking for other terms.

Until quite recently most TOCs didn't even have the 'You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey .....' anywhere on their websites, so some improvement has been made.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have to agree with Glynn80, royaloak and clagmoster.
The TOCs are quite entitled to create discounted products, and in this case it appears that this is a perfectly reasonable long distance product which might attract some custom from the via Swindon route to the via Salisbury route. And why not?
As the OP asked the question, no, that product (a contracted supply of a service) will not apply to a "short" London-Salisbury journey.

And that should be all there is to say on the matter. (Its regrettable that this thread didn't stop with the posts on 3rd January)

 

[tony_mac]

And that should be all there is to say on the matter. (Its regrettable that this thread didn't stop with the posts on 3rd January)

In future, should I check that you agree with my opinions before I am allowed to post?