London to Paris mid 1970's question

[WesternLancer]

It was all rather sad really - there was a bit of a send-off from Victoria with TV and Press interest and detonators let off on departure - Cl 33 haulage to Dover - but absolutely zero interest in Paris Nord. I watched rather melancholily as the empty stock was shunted out for the last time. The sleeping cars were half-empty - I worked for BR at the time (MS1 - First Class travel in those days!) so it was affordable. Some of the cars were in SNCF livery; others still in Wagon Lits livery. I slept surprisingly well, missing all the action at Dunkerque - beer might have helped.

I returned via Brussels, Rotterdam, Hoek, Harwich and the 'North Country Continental'. Happy Days!

Thanks for sharing these memories Sir Felix. Interesting to read.

I'm guessing press interest perhaps didn't make it to TV news footage that has survived to end up online. I assume the UK railway press covered it of course, and perhaps included photos from the last night.

There's a good timeline here I have found - along with some good pictures from over the years, most notably of the ships.

The Night Ferry – Shipping Timeline

Introduced on the night of the 14th-15th October 1936, the Night Ferry was an international sleeper train operating between London Victoria and Paris Gare du Nord. In later years Brussels was also served. The service was operated by the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits, SNCF (French...

www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk

and a decent picture here from 30 October 1980 (I'm guessing the headboard displayed and clear in the photo was uncommon to see in use by 1980?)

Rail Thing - Electrics and Diesels on Southern Metals | The penultimate inbound 'Night Ferry' passes Tonbridge on Thursday 30 October 1980 bearing the Dover Western Dock to Victoria (via Catford) headcode | Facebook

The penultimate inbound 'Night Ferry' passes Tonbridge on Thursday 30 October 1980 bearing the Dover Western Dock to Victoria (via Catford) headcode. The train is being hauled by 33043.

www.facebook.com

The penultimate inbound 'Night Ferry' passes Tonbridge on Thursday 30 October 1980 bearing the Dover Western Dock to Victoria (via Catford) headcode. The train is being hauled by 33043.

and the last inbound pictured here on this page

Great Western Passenger Forum

[otd] 31st October 1980 - last run of night ferry - passenger forum.

www.firstgreatwestern.info

Sunrise over a chilly Tonbridge on Friday 31 October 1980 as the final inbound 'Night Ferry' approaches hauled by 33043 running from Dover Western Docks to Victoria (via Catford) - John Atkinson

plus further down a pic of it arriving into Victoria in October 1980

EDIT
Found a 2 minute you tube film of the arrival into Paris from the train on the last day - genuinely excited to see this - credit Nicholas Tozer (presume connected with this shop: http://www.railwaybook.com/ )

On 31st October I boarded my first class sleeping compartment in London [Victoria] and the next morning I alighted in Paris having experienced the last run of the 'Night Ferry'. This silent cine film shows the arrival in Paris.

Looks like a sunny morning - is that your recollection? @Sir Felix Pole

A similar film entering Victoria around the same date would be good!

and here on Flikr about a dozen still pics from the last night of arrival at Dover and loading the carriages onto the ferry - shunting by an 09. Credit Stephen Godden

quite a few passengers observing from one of the carriages and also on a deck overlooking the rail lines on the ship - so not everyone asleep

The Last Night Ferry - Dover Marine Friday 31 October 1980

Along with two friends I made my way to Dover Marine (it was actually Dover Western Docks by this date but will always be The Marine to us of a certain generation) to see the arrival of the very last Night Ferry from London Victoria to Brussels and Paris. The train was handled by BR(S) Class 33...

www.flickr.com

The Last Night Ferry - Dover Marine Friday 31 October 1980​

Along with two friends I made my way to Dover Marine (it was actually Dover Western Docks by this date but will always be The Marine to us of a certain generation) to see the arrival of the very last Night Ferry from London Victoria to Brussels and Paris.​

The train was handled by BR(S) Class 33 No 33043 with Dover driver Jack Heath and Dover secondman Paul Thomas in charge.​

Here we see the train having been shunted onto the ferry by one of Dovers ubiquitous Class 09 diesel shunters as it withdraws from the Train Ferry Link Span.​

Some of those pictures and the film might give a good sense of @richieb1971 mother's experience given the general proximity of the date - 1976 - to 1980

 

[Harlequinuk]

Also heres a video of the night ferry and its operation (about 1/2 way through)

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Thanks for sharing these memories Sir Felix. Interesting to read.

I'm guessing press interest perhaps didn't make it to TV news footage that has survived to end up online. I assume the UK railway press covered it of course, and perhaps included photos from the last night.

There's a good timeline here I have found - along with some good pictures from over the years, most notably of the ships.

The Night Ferry – Shipping Timeline

Introduced on the night of the 14th-15th October 1936, the Night Ferry was an international sleeper train operating between London Victoria and Paris Gare du Nord. In later years Brussels was also served. The service was operated by the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits, SNCF (French...

www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk

and a decent picture here from 30 October 1980 (I'm guessing the headboard displayed and clear in the photo was uncommon to see in use by 1980?)

Rail Thing - Electrics and Diesels on Southern Metals | The penultimate inbound 'Night Ferry' passes Tonbridge on Thursday 30 October 1980 bearing the Dover Western Dock to Victoria (via Catford) headcode | Facebook

The penultimate inbound 'Night Ferry' passes Tonbridge on Thursday 30 October 1980 bearing the Dover Western Dock to Victoria (via Catford) headcode. The train is being hauled by 33043.

www.facebook.com

and the last inbound pictured here on this page

Great Western Passenger Forum

[otd] 31st October 1980 - last run of night ferry - passenger forum.

www.firstgreatwestern.info

plus further down a pic of it arriving into Victoria in October 1980

EDIT
Found a 2 minute you tube film of the arrival into Paris from the train on the last day - genuinely excited to see this - credit Nicholas Tozer (presume connected with this shop: http://www.railwaybook.com/ )

Looks like a sunny morning - is that your recollection? @Sir Felix Pole

A similar film entering Victoria around the same date would be good!

and here on Flikr about a dozen still pics from the last night of arrival at Dover and loading the carriages onto the ferry - shunting by an 09. Credit Stephen Godden

quite a few passengers observing from one of the carriages and also on a deck overlooking the rail lines on the ship - so not everyone asleep

The Last Night Ferry - Dover Marine Friday 31 October 1980

Along with two friends I made my way to Dover Marine (it was actually Dover Western Docks by this date but will always be The Marine to us of a certain generation) to see the arrival of the very last Night Ferry from London Victoria to Brussels and Paris. The train was handled by BR(S) Class 33...

www.flickr.com

Some of those pictures and the film might give a good sense of @richieb1971 mother's experience given the general proximity of the date - 1976 - to 1980

Interesting, thanks - I haven't spotted myself in any of the footage / photos! Yes it was a fine, but cold day in Paris - it was also the 'All Saints Day' holiday so the city was quiet. I remember having to deal with with a very snooty waiter at lunchtime in a bistro in my schoolboy French (it hasn't improved much). I stayed that night in the Youth Hostel at Choisy le Roi a few stops out of Austerlitz on the main-line, which turned out to be an excellent spotting location.

I think BR did toy with the idea of continuing the service with Mk. 1 sleepers, but it was not to be unfortunately.

 

[WesternLancer]

Interesting, thanks - I haven't spotted myself in any of the footage / photos! Yes it was a fine, but cold day in Paris - it was also the 'All Saints Day' holiday so the city was quiet. I remember having to deal with with a very snooty waiter at lunchtime in a bistro in my schoolboy French (it hasn't improved much). I stayed that night in the Youth Hostel at Choisy le Roi a few stops out of Austerlitz on the main-line, which turned out to be an excellent spotting location.

I think BR did toy with the idea of continuing the service with Mk. 1 sleepers, but it was not to be unfortunately.

Thanks - a shame you are not in it!

Interesting about the possible Mk1 replacement idea.

Of course it would not have been too long before Mk3 sleepers would have been on stream with their enhanced features. Maybe SNCF were un-interested. But with what turned out to be the over provision of the Mk3 sleepers there would have been plenty available for the service.

I have a clear recollection of reading James Sherwood (of Sea Containers) writing that he had been encouraged to try and take it on and operate it, who by I can't recall - probably fans of the service who regretted its demise - I think this was probably at the time he was already trying to assemble Wagon Lits carriages to restore for the his VSOE project - I suspect in Shirley Sherwood's book on the Venice Simplon Orient Express. I can't lay my hands on my copy to check but think he indicated that he wanted the more ambitious and potentially easier to sell to wealthy passengers - orient express option, not just the London to Paris alternative.

 

[contrex]

I have seen somewhere on the depths of youtube a film showing a pair of 33's working in synch to load balanced wagon sets onto a ferry, as you describe.
Not certain, but I think the ferry involved was Saint Elois (AKA King Orry)

Was it this one? The ship appears to be named Nord Pas-de-Calais, unless it was filmed another time. You see unloading and loading taking place.

 

[Gloster]

Was it this one? The ship appears to be named Nord Pas-de-Calais, unless it was filmed another time. You see unloading and loading taking place.

Nord-Pas-de-Calais entered service at the end of 1987. The most likely ferry was Saint Germain, but others from those listed in #29 are possible if she was off.

 

[contrex]

Nord-Pas-de-Calais entered service at the end of 1987. The most likely ferry was Saint Germain, but others from those listed in #29 are possible if she was off.

What I meant was the opening shots of the video show a vessel clearly named Nord Pas-de-Calais arriving at Dover, and subsequently the video shows rail loading/unloading operations taking place. Only the stern of the vessel is visible in those scenes. A possibly misplaced zeal for accuracy made me suppose that the ship and rail operations might have been filmed separately and edited together, but it is of course equally likely that it was all the same ship.

 

[Gloster]

What I meant was the opening shots of the video show a vessel clearly named Nord Pas-de-Calais arriving at Dover, and subsequently the video shows rail loading/unloading operations taking place. Only the stern of the vessel is visible in those scenes. A possibly misplaced zeal for accuracy made me suppose that the ship and rail operations might have been filmed separately and edited together, but it is of course equally likely that it was all the same ship.

It depends when the Dutch grey livery was introduced, but I think it is Nord-Pas-de-Calais.

 

[contrex]

It depends when the Dutch grey livery was introduced, but I think it is Nord-Pas-de-Calais.

The video is dated 27 May 1992 by the uploader.

 

[Acathater]

Was it this one? The ship appears to be named Nord Pas-de-Calais, unless it was filmed another time. You see unloading and loading taking place.

Yes, that's the film I was thinking of, and it is the Nord Pas-de-Calais.
She was one of the last, if not the last train ferry

 

[AY1975]

I think BR did toy with the idea of continuing the service with Mk. 1 sleepers, but it was not to be unfortunately.

Indeed, as discussed in this now locked thread from last year about what would have happened if the 1978 Taunton sleeper train fire hadn't happened: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ton-sleeper-train-fire-hadnt-happened.281300/

Of course it would not have been too long before Mk3 sleepers would have been on stream with their enhanced features. Maybe SNCF were un-interested.

Quite possibly, and I suspect that BR decided that the cost of modifying a small fleet of Mark 1 sleepers just to keep the Night Ferry going for a few more years could not be justified. The Taunton fire probably put paid to the idea too.

But with what turned out to be the over provision of the Mk3 sleepers there would have been plenty available for the service.

Maybe, but I believe that Mark 3s are (or were) banned from the South Eastern Division because of limited clearances in a number of locations.

Any Mark 1 or Mark 3 sleepers used on the Night Ferry would presumably have had to be fitted with retractable steps for use in France and Belgium.

 

[Grumpy]

Interesting about the possible Mk1 replacement idea.

Of course it would not have been too long before Mk3 sleepers would have been on stream with their enhanced features. Maybe SNCF were un-interested. But with what turned out to be the over provision of the Mk3 sleepers there would have been plenty available for the service.

The problem was that nobody was making any money out of it. BR's Shipping Division wanted rid as there was more money to be made by using the deckspace for RoRo road vehicles. Similarly BR's rail business was losing money-a costly operation for a relatively small number of passenger miles (and hence share of revenue) in the UK. SNCF had been charging an arm and a leg for running it-their charges for the sleeper attendants were several times what BR was paying its sleeper staff

 

[WesternLancer]

The problem was that nobody was making any money out of it. BR's Shipping Division wanted rid as there was more money to be made by using the deckspace for RoRo road vehicles. Similarly BR's rail business was losing money-a costly operation for a relatively small number of passenger miles (and hence share of revenue) in the UK. SNCF had been charging an arm and a leg for running it-their charges for the sleeper attendants were several times what BR was paying its sleeper staff

Interesting to read these insights into aspects of it - I assume it made money originally or the pre nationalised railway would not have run it. Much had changed by 1979 of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2026 ==

Indeed, as discussed in this now locked thread from last year about what would have happened if the 1978 Taunton sleeper train fire hadn't happened: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ton-sleeper-train-fire-hadnt-happened.281300/

Quite possibly, and I suspect that BR decided that the cost of modifying a small fleet of Mark 1 sleepers just to keep the Night Ferry going for a few more years could not be justified. The Taunton fire probably put paid to the idea too.

Maybe, but I believe that Mark 3s are (or were) banned from the South Eastern Division because of limited clearances in a number of locations.

Any Mark 1 or Mark 3 sleepers used on the Night Ferry would presumably have had to be fitted with retractable steps for use in France and Belgium.

and many thanks for these observations too - as well as the link to the other thread.

would have needed a dedicated sub fleet of mk3 even without the clearance issues.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Nord-Pas-de-Calais entered service at the end of 1987. The most likely ferry was Saint Germain, but others from those listed in #29 are possible if she was off.

I recall both St Germain and St Eloi being used when I was a foot passenger on the Night Ferry and fairly sure I travelled on Vortigern too, there would of course be two ships on Night Ferry workings each night as they passed in mid Channel. I made I think 4 or 5 trips in the mid '79s and at least one in 1980.

SNCF had been charging an arm and a leg for running it-their charges for the sleeper attendants were several times what BR was paying its sleeper staff

In the latter years BR provided the Sleeing Car attendants.

 

[Grumpy]

In the latter years BR provided the Sleeing Car attendants.

Now you know why