London to North West - Avanti Issues

[Fedupnorthern]

I am assisting group travel down to London from Wigan on the 7th and returning the 9th Feb. The group are advised that the scheduled return is cancelled, presumably strike related, and that the return ticket can be cancelled and refunded. This doesn't really suit as with a return ticket they won't get to London in this case. For the return I expect Avanti will permit use of any train to NW. which may be crowded, but going the right way. Will this likely happen and will Northern or Transpennine also accept North West connections via alternative routes? Can this be extended to an alternative routes out of other stations via Sheffield or Leeds, totally avoiding any chaos? If not, can the return proportion be cancelled and refunded after the event, with re-bookings via other TOC evidence of travel via alternative providers.

Many thanks for any thoughts.

 

[Haywain]

What tickets do you (or the group) have?

 

[Fedupnorthern]

What tickets do you (or the group) have?

Standard return tickets with seats on pre-booked trains. Would Avanti response differ if the ticket was advance compared to standard, if the cancellation is down to the TOC?

 

[Watershed]

Standard return tickets with seats on pre-booked trains.

What kind of 'standard return' ticket - an Off-Peak Return, routed "Any Permitted"? The type and routing of the ticket will determine the degree of flexibility that the group have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Standard return tickets with seats on pre-booked trains. Would Avanti response differ if the ticket was advance compared to standard, if the cancellation is down to the TOC?

In this case yes. While you can attempt to be re-routed under the PRO, getting this is near impossible - it's normally taken that if the disruption is due to industrial action there will be no ticket acceptance on other TOCs or routes that wouldn't be available on your ticket anyway. Realistically the only way you'll get those rights is to pay for them and sue the TOC afterwards having asked for a re-route and been refused. It will depend on your attitude to such things, but for most this falls under the "too much effort" bracket.

If the tickets are Advances and are towards the higher-priced end it may be worth refunding them and repurchasing Off Peak Returns though, offering added flexibility. Depends exactly what you've got and the price.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

RTT is showing 3 through trains Wigan-Euston on 9 Feb, at 0931 (from Preston), 1131 (from Glasgow), and 1331 (from Glasgow).
All three trains run via Birmingham, and the journey time is 3h23m.
There are also trains from Liverpool at 0943/1143/1343/1543 (journey time 3h45m, also via Birmingham and sometimes via Stoke as well).
There's an hourly service from Manchester, via Crewe and Birmingham.
The Trent Valley route was always planned to be closed on the 9th.

 

[Haywain]

RTT is showing 3 through trains Wigan-Euston on 9 Feb, at 0931 (from Preston), 1131 (from Glasgow), and 1331 (from Glasgow).

The OP's group appear to be travelling north on the 9th.

 

[Fedupnorthern]

The OP's group appear to be travelling north on the 9th.

That is correct.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The OP's group appear to be travelling north on the 9th.

Ah, my mistake sorry...
RTT at least shows the northbound options on the 9th, 2-3tph to the north west.
All trains run via Birmingham.

Realtime Trains | Departures from London Euston all day on 09/02/2025

Train information at London Euston all day on 09/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Fedupnorthern]

In this case yes. While you can attempt to be re-routed under the PRO, getting this is near impossible - it's normally taken that if the disruption is due to industrial action there will be no ticket acceptance on other TOCs or routes that wouldn't be available on your ticket anyway. Realistically the only way you'll get those rights is to pay for them and sue the TOC afterwards having asked for a re-route and been refused. It will depend on your attitude to such things, but for most this falls under the "too much effort" bracket.

If the tickets are Advances and are towards the higher-priced end it may be worth refunding them and repurchasing Off Peak Returns though, offering added flexibility. Depends exactly what you've got and the price.

Thanks, taking Avanti to court would seem disproportionate. Can London to Wigan be routed via Yorkshire under "any permitted" conditions?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2025 ==

Ah, my mistake sorry...
RTT at least shows the northbound options on the 9th, 2-3tph to the north west.
All trains run via Birmingham.

Realtime Trains | Departures from London Euston all day on 09/02/2025

Train information at London Euston all day on 09/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I guess there is perhaps only half capacity available in that general direction on Sunday afternoon then. Busy trains..... I did warn them not to use railways at the weekend....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, taking Avanti to court would seem disproportionate. Can London to Wigan be routed via Yorkshire under "any permitted" conditions?

It certainly appears to be valid via the MML and Sheffield from a quick play with Trainline. Manchester definitely is. Though on a Sunday Northern's Manchester to Wigan is only 0.5tph.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks, taking Avanti to court would seem disproportionate. Can London to Wigan be routed via Yorkshire under "any permitted" conditions?

As far as I can see the return tickets into King's Cross via Leeds, which used to be valid from Preston, have been abolished by the LNER single-leg pricing policy.
So the only valid return option other than Avanti is on EMR from St Pancras via Sheffield and Manchester at £109 (any permitted, off-peak, no time restrictions on Sundays) - but journey time is about 5 hours.
One check I did via Sheffield had Manchester-Wigan via Warrington (walk Central-BQ) and ending up on Avanti...

 

[Fedupnorthern]

As far as I can see the return tickets into King's Cross via Leeds, which used to be valid from Preston, have been abolished by the LNER single-leg pricing policy.
So the only valid return option other than Avanti is on EMR from St Pancras via Sheffield and Manchester at £109 (any permitted, off-peak, no time restrictions on Sundays) - but journey time is about 5 hours.
One check I did via Sheffield had Manchester-Wigan via Warrington (walk Central-BQ) and ending up on Avanti...

Really useful thanks. Not the strange Warrington route, but via Sheffield as a sneaky alternative to WCML. I expect LNWR via Liverpool would also be OK, albeit it is equally lengthy and likely to have much more overspill from the Avanti chaos.

 

[Haywain]

the return tickets into King's Cross via Leeds, which used to be valid from Preston,

I don't recall such tickets existing in the last 20-plus years. There were tickets from Burnley routed via Leeds, and some stations slightly west of Burnley also had tickets routed 'Any Permitted' that were valid via Leeds to King's Cross, but not from as far west as Preston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really useful thanks. Not the strange Warrington route, but via Sheffield as a sneaky alternative to WCML. I expect LNWR via Liverpool would also be OK, albeit it is equally lengthy and likely to have much more overspill from the Avanti chaos.

When the Trent is closed the Crewe doesn't run, so you'd be changing at Birmingham and I suspect with Chiltern also shut will be VERY busy.

If you do want to go with LNER, though, and your original tickets are Advances, why not use a split ticket site to work you out the best combination to go via Leeds if that's what you want to do, and refund the return ticket for Avanti? If your originals aren't Advances you might still want to do that if you don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience (LNER is expensive anyway) as Avanti Off Peak Singles are roughly 70% of the return and you might get an Advance for the outward?

 

[Belperpete]

When the Trent is closed the Crewe doesn't run, so you'd be changing at Birmingham and I suspect with Chiltern also shut will be VERY busy.

And Cross-Country Birmingham - Reading also closed, funneling yet more passengers via London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Cross-Country Birmingham - Reading also closed, funneling yet more passengers via London.

Wow. Planning that and Chiltern to close on the same weekend even without the Avanti strike is really very poor.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Wow. Planning that and Chiltern to close on the same weekend even without the Avanti strike is really very poor.

The key engineering location seems to be just South of Banbury, so that was always likely to hit both Cross Country and Chiltern.