London to Exeter SWR Advance Ticket

[mynamesnotjohn]

In July I bought an advance ticket from London Waterloo to Exeter this Thursday leaving at 8:20 and arriving at 11:43.

I got a generic email from SWR in August saying their timetable was changing but thought nothing of it because I just assumed the journey I'd booked would be based on whatever the new timetable was.

On the off chance earlier this week I discovered the train I booked is now arriving in Exeter an hour later than originally scheduled. It says on their website that your ticket will be valid on the train prior to the one you booked.

The problem is there is no earlier train from London Waterloo to Exeter. There are however earlier trains from London Paddington to Exeter but when I phoned SWR they said I cannot use those trains because it's a different route. They gave me an option of a refund on my advance ticket and for me to buy a London Paddington to Exeter ticket but that would mean paying nearly £100 extra for the inconvenience.

I contacted the rail ombudsman who in turn pointed me to another company who told me to put in a formal complaint and they will step in if I get an unsatisfactory response. I've put in a formal complaint but they say it can take up to 2 weeks to respond by which point I would of already made my journey.

What should I do?

In my mind SWR can no longer get me to Exeter at 11:43 like they said they could when I bought the ticket and going from London Paddington to Exeter is a reasonable alternative route to get me there for that time.

 

[bikesntrains77]

Did the email advise that your originally booked ticket was cancelled?

Ticket acceptance​

The following acceptance applies to Advance tickets only:

If your SWR service between London Waterloo and Exeter St Davids, in either direction, has been cancelled at Exeter St Davids, Exeter Central, Pinhoe or Cranbrook, including onward connections with another operator, you can travel on Great Western Railway services between Exeter St Davids and London Paddington, in either direction.

 

[mynamesnotjohn]

Did the email advice that your originally booked ticket was cancelled?

No the train hasn't been cancelled. It's arriving an hour later than originally scheduled and SWR aren't running an earlier train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which company have you actually complained to? Who did the Rail Ombudsman direct you to?

 

[Watershed]

@mynamesnotjohn welcome to the forum.

The issue you have here is that the rail industry thinks it's acceptable to significantly vary the core terms of the contract (i.e. the times you'll leave and arrive) without compensating you, as they claim that they effectively can calculate Delay Repay based on whichever timetable is advertised when you arrive at the station. It also thinks it has no obligation to let you take other routes or operators to mitigate the changes.

That position is highly dubious under consumer law, since the timings will almost certainly amount to implied terms of the contract under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA).

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) don't explicitly give the train companies the right to vary timings - they just describe the outcome if they do (e.g. that you're entitled to a refund). In any event the NRCoT can't override your statutory consumer rights.

Under section 54 of the CRA, failure to comply with an implied term of the contract gives you the right to repeat performance or a price reduction. In the context of a train journey, repeat performance, i.e. providing the service again in compliance with the CRA, clearly isn't possible.

Therefore your remedy under the CRA is to a price reduction, i.e. getting some compensation or money back, by an "appropriate" amount. Since Delay Repay establishes a clear mechanism for getting compensation for delays, I think it would be a good way of establishing an "appropriate" price reduction.

Based on the train now arriving 59 mins later than when you booked it, I would argue you'd be entitled to travel on the SWR service and receive 50% of the ticket back by way of a price reduction under the CRA. If it ends up arriving even a minute "late" (based on the new timings) then that would increase to 100% if you use the Delay Repay thresholds and percentages.

Of course I expect any claim to SWR's customer services along those lines would be refused, since train companies generally seem to think they don't need to comply with consumer law. But it gives you a basis for claiming something in Court if it came to it.

Unfortunately I wouldn't hold out much hope for success with the Rail Ombudsman. It's a furniture ombudsman playing trains effectively - they clearly have no subject matter expertise and regularly seem to take train companies' arguments at face value regardless of how absurd they are.

As for the option of taking GWR, unfortunately the fact that the train is now scheduled to arrive only 59 mins later means you just miss out on a clear-cut legal right to "re-routing" under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), which kicks in when you are anticipated to arrive 61+ mins late. I think it's hard to establish an entitlement to the cost of a much more expensive GWR ticket under any other law, when the delay is expected to be under an hour.

 

[mynamesnotjohn]

Which company have you actually complained to? Who did the Rail Ombudsman direct you to?

I complained to SWR and the company Rail Ombudsman directed me to was Transport Focus.

@mynamesnotjohn welcome to the forum.

The issue you have here is that the rail industry thinks it's acceptable to significantly vary the core terms of the contract (i.e. the times you'll leave and arrive) without compensating you, as they claim that they effectively can calculate Delay Repay based on whichever timetable is advertised when you arrive at the station. It also thinks it has no obligation to let you take other routes or operators to mitigate the changes.

That position is highly dubious under consumer law, since the timings will almost certainly amount to implied terms of the contract under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA).

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) don't explicitly give the train companies the right to vary timings - they just describe the outcome if they do (e.g. that you're entitled to a refund). In any event the NRCoT can't override your statutory consumer rights.

Under section 54 of the CRA, failure to comply with an implied term of the contract gives you the right to repeat performance or a price reduction. In the context of a train journey, repeat performance, i.e. providing the service again in compliance with the CRA, clearly isn't possible.

Therefore your remedy under the CRA is to a price reduction, i.e. getting some compensation or money back, by an "appropriate" amount. Since Delay Repay establishes a clear mechanism for getting compensation for delays, I think it would be a good way of establishing an "appropriate" price reduction.

Based on the train now arriving 59 mins later than when you booked it, I would argue you'd be entitled to travel on the SWR service and receive 50% of the ticket back by way of a price reduction under the CRA. If it ends up arriving even a minute "late" (based on the new timings) then that would increase to 100% if you use the Delay Repay thresholds and percentages.

Of course I expect any claim to SWR's customer services along those lines would be refused, since train companies generally seem to think they don't need to comply with consumer law. But it gives you a basis for claiming something in Court if it came to it.

Unfortunately I wouldn't hold out much hope for success with the Rail Ombudsman. It's a furniture ombudsman playing trains effectively - they clearly have no subject matter expertise and regularly seem to take train companies' arguments at face value regardless of how absurd they are.

As for the option of taking GWR, unfortunately the fact that the train is now scheduled to arrive only 59 mins later means you just miss out on a clear-cut legal right to "re-routing" under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), which kicks in when you are anticipated to arrive 61+ mins late. I think it's hard to establish an entitlement to the cost of a much more expensive GWR ticket under any other law, when the delay is expected to be under an hour.

Thanks for the explanation.

I've received a response today but it completely ignores the actual issue I have. All it does is explains why they have an amended timetable in place. It's certainly an unsatisfactory response so I'm going to try my luck with Transport Focus.

 

[Sealink]

@mynamesnotjohn welcome to the forum.


As for the option of taking GWR, unfortunately the fact that the train is now scheduled to arrive only 59 mins later means you just miss out on a clear-cut legal right to "re-routing" under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), which kicks in when you are anticipated to arrive 61+ mins late. I think it's hard to establish an entitlement to the cost of a much more expensive GWR ticket under any other law, when the delay is expected to be under an hour.

And the probability is that the train will be an hour late giving the problems plaguing that line. But that's a moot point when we are talking about a timetabled service.

 

[joncombe]

I was in a similar issue and in my case the train I was booked on was cancelled and the next one took an hour later. SWR still refused the re-routing and I was told to raise a complaint. I did so and never got a response (it was over a month ago) other than the automated one. I will follow up with the Ombudsman as soon as the required number of working days have passed, but I am not expecting a good response to them. As others have said they usually just accept the TOC argument without checking the laws, conditions and so on.

 

[30907]

The following acceptance applies to Advance tickets only:

If your SWR service between London Waterloo and Exeter St Davids, in either direction, has been cancelled at Exeter St Davids, Exeter Central, Pinhoe or Cranbrook, including onward connections with another operator, you can travel on Great Western Railway services between Exeter St Davids and London Paddington, in either direction.

This quotation (I presume from SWR) is interesting, because arguably the 1130 departure at Cranbrook (and thereafter) has been cancelled. Is this a point worth making?

 

[gray1404]

I would argue your service has been cancelled.as it's no longer departing Waterloo and arriving Exeter at the times booked. It therefore does not seam unreasonable to board the 8.03 or 9.03 from Paddington.

 

[Watershed]

I would argue your service has been cancelled.as it's no longer departing Waterloo and arriving Exeter at the times booked. It therefore does not seam unreasonable to board the 8.03 or 9.03 from Paddington.

Unfortunately it's not been cancelled, as it will still have the same Waterloo departure time, and the same schedule identity (headcode, UID, RSID etc.).

It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect to travel from Paddington but there is no clear legal right to do so.

 

[mynamesnotjohn]

Well I went back to SWR to say they weren't addressing the issue and they ended up saying that you can only use your ticket on GWR if your train has been cancelled. I then contacted Transport Focus but they said they wouldn't be able to resolve it prior to me making the journey.

I decided it wasn't worth the risk getting a GWR so got to Exeter an hour late. I've submitted a delay repay which was instantly rejected and have now put in an appeal.

For the journey home I was always going to take the train I booked even if it did get me back an hour later. My friend booked a train an hour later because they wanted to stay in Exeter a bit longer and that was cancelled so they were allowed to get the GWR home and got back to London before me. The stupid thing was they booked through a 3rd party site at the end of August when the train they booked was already non-existent.

I have plans to go back to Exeter but I won't be taking the train next time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Delay Repay is not applicable because the published timetable on the day of travel was the one with the longer journey time.

 

[Watershed]

Delay Repay is not applicable because the published timetable on the day of travel was the one with the longer journey time.

Well, SWR are certainly likely to claim that. But as a minimum there would be an entitlement to a modest amount of compensation under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), since that statutory liability cannot be contractually excluded or limited.

And there is significant doubt whether the published timetable 'limiation' is enforceable under consumer law.

 

[Tom]

The stupid thing was they booked through a 3rd party site at the end of August when the train they booked was already non-existent.

Just need to pick up on this: a third party site, as with any other retailer be that third party or TOC, will sell the timetable that the operator has planned in the system at the point in time of purchase.

Whether the operator knows that they are going to change it or not is largely irrelevant, if it is in the system and able to be sold then it can be sold by anyone.

 

[mynamesnotjohn]

Here's an update. I phoned up SWR who initially said I wasn't entitled to delay repay because the train was on time according to their revised timetable.

After arguing my case the person on the phone told me that my tickets would of been valid on the GWR service. I said that I was told that I couldn't use my tickets on GWR and they said the person I spoke to gave me incorrect information. I pointed out that it wasn't just 1 person with incorrect information I spoke to, I'd made a 2nd phone call to them plus I had 3 responses from 3 different people after making my formal complaint all of whom were telling me the same thing.

After looking at my formal complaint and seeing the responses they agreed to give me a manual delay repay because of the misinformation I was given.

Whilst I'm happy with getting some compensation I would rather of got to Exeter at my desired time. I also question whether they really would of been valid on GWR or it was just a way to avoid compensating me and had I not made that formal complaint I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

To answer Toms point, what I can see is a screenshot from my friend on Aug 31st that shows departure and arrival time which would of been from the original timetable due to the length of the journey.