London to Brockenhurst - Can I do it cheaper?

[Tibbs]

I'm going to a friend's wedding and I'm traveling down on the Fri 10th May and back up on the Sun 12th May.

I need to be fairly flexible on the 12th as when I will be traveling depends on how bad my hangover is. However, on Friday I need to get down there after 2pm but before 5pm and can take a specific train.

I'd like to travel 1st class if possible. I have a Network Gold card so can upgrade for £5 per day.

My season ticket covers me from Zones 1-10, so I looked into a BZ6 to Brockenhurst ticket as that saves me a couple of quid.

However, I wasn't sure if I could upgrade that ticket so I could sit in First all the way. Given that you can't upgrade a journey made on your season ticket, would I have to sit in Std until I passed the BZ6 boundary, then could I sit in First?

Are there any helpful splits I could use and still sit in First all the way?

Taking the Safe option, I'm looking at £16 for a First Class Advance on the way down, leaving at 12:35 and arriving at 14:04.

On the way back I'm looking at £31.25 (£26.25 + £5 Upgrade) for a Super Off Peak Single From Brockenhurst to Waterloo.

I'm pretty sure the £16 is as good as I can get, but are there any helpful splits for the way back, and can someone confirm the whole first Upgrade / BZ6 thing as going via BZ6 gets me down to £28.05 (£23.05 + £5 Upgrade).

Thanks

 

[Lrd]

There is nothing great about the first class on SWT, going down to the country end of a 444 will pretty much guarantee you a nice seat, if you want a power socket then sit at a table in the last coach.

The stoppers from Waterloo could be a Class 450 where the first class is even worse than on a 444 and really is not worth paying the extra.

I shall send you a PM with regards to the tickets.

 

[soil]

"Do you hold a Gold Card?
Gold Cards may be able to benefit from the Gold Card First Supplement, if they are not travelling on the journey covered by their Annual Gold Card Season Ticket or Travelcard.
Holders of Annual Gold Cards Season Tickets and Travelcards may buy a special First Class upgrade for £5.00 (children £2.50) when travelling on a Standard Class ticket which has received an Annual Gold Card discount.
This allows travel in First Class accommodation on trains within the Network Railcard area on for the date shown on the supplement ticket. If the return journey is made on another day, a further Supplement ticket must be purchased.
On Saturdays, Sundays and Public Holidays you may travel in First Accommodation by simply paying the supplement.
The Gold Card First Supplement ticket may be used in First Class after 1000 Monday to Friday and at any time on Saturdays, Sundays and Public Holidays. In addition, the Gold Card First Supplement cannot be used on journeys departing from any London terminal station or any intermediate journey between London and Clapham Junction inclusive between 1600 and 1900 (inclusive).
Gold Card First Supplement tickets are not valid for travel on services operated by CrossCountry, East Coast, East Midlands Trains (Mainline), Heathrow Express and Virgin Trains."

So:

London - Brockenhurst SVR at £30.25 plus the outbound supplement, and possibly the return if you can buy one for the 12th at the same time.

Total £40.25 in First, return, with two supplements

On the weekday you cannot use your season at all when upgrading. On the weekend you can, so split ticket plus upgrade is valid:
Brockenhurst - Surbiton via Woking SDS £23.15 plus £5 = £28.15 for the straight-forward option, or
Brockenhurst - Ascot SDS £20.95 + £5 = £25.95, which is valid Brockenhurst - Reading - Ascot, Brockenhurst - Brookwood - Ash Vale - Ascot, or Brockenhurst - Clapham Junction - Ascot (and hence via Surbiton/BZ6) = SDS
outbound Waterloo - Brockenhurst £14 First Advance
=£41.95/£44.15
with one supplement

You pays your money and you takes your choice.


And just to add, I agree with Lewis re SWT 1st, personally I would pay under £20 in standard, return for this - PM me if he hasn't sent you a better deal!

 

[johnnycache]

Off-peak return Brighton to Brockenhurst route not via London £25.90 with gold card discount

This ticket will cover Clapham Junction to and from Brockenhurst

First class upgrades therefore valid from Clapham Junction on Friday

 

[soil]

Ascot - Brockenhurst is 10p cheaper

Both tickets have potential to cause disagreement.

They wouldn't be valid for 1st on trains not stopping at Clapham Junction (half of them).

Secondly, on trains that do stop at Clapham Junction there is potential for disagreement, in the definition of 'journey', whether Waterloo- Clapham Junction - Brockenhurst on the same train is one journey or two.

 

[johnnycache]

Ascot - Brockenhurst is 10p cheaper

Both tickets have potential to cause disagreement.



They wouldn't be valid for 1st on trains not stopping at Clapham Junction (half of them).

Secondly, on trains that do stop at Clapham Junction there is potential for disagreement, in the definition of 'journey', whether Waterloo- Clapham Junction - Brockenhurst on the same train is one journey or two.

Portslade to Brockenhurst would be £25.10
Route not via London
I don't have routeing data handy but Brighton must be a routeing point for Portslade so if Brighton is ok so is Portslade

 

[soil]

Why must Brighton be a routeing point for Portslade?

Portslade lies between Hove (Brighton Group) and Ford (Ford Group).

If the fares to Portslade are lower than those to Brighton, it follows that Brighton is NOT an appropriate routeing point (although it is of course possible for e.g. the CDR to be cheaper but the SDS to be the same price, but that's not the cas here). Since Brighton Group fails the fares check, it's reasonable (though not inevitable) to assume that Ford will pass the fares check, and that Ford Group is the appropriate routeing group.

Checking the fares confirms that this is the case.

Checking at http://trainscanbecheaper.info/permitted.aspx?sessionID=0&from=PLD&to=BCU&v1=&v2=&v3=&v4=&v5= can expedite this process of determing valid routeing points, although be sure to use the 'Not Via London' fare rather than 'Via Barnham'

 

[johnnycache]

Why must Brighton be a routeing point for Portslade?

Portslade lies between Hove (Brighton Group) and Ford (Ford Group).

If the fares to Portslade are lower than those to Brighton, it follows that Brighton is NOT an appropriate routeing point (although it is of course possible for e.g. the CDR to be cheaper but the SDS to be the same price, but that's not the cas here). Since Brighton Group fails the fares check, it's reasonable (though not inevitable) to assume that Ford will pass the fares check, and that Ford Group is the appropriate routeing group.

Checking the fares confirms that this is the case.

Checking at http://trainscanbecheaper.info/permitted.aspx?sessionID=0&from=PLD&to=BCU&v1=&v2=&v3=&v4=&v5= can expedite this process of determing valid routeing points, although be sure to use the 'Not Via London' fare rather than 'Via Barnham'

You're right. Ascot is the best deal so far. From Ford the only fare is Any Permitted. I'm not able to check at the moment but probably the only map is CW ie along the coast. So the not via London fare from Portslade is to be interpreted as "any route along the coast that doesn't go via London". Hopefully soon these ambiguous routeings will be replaced with something intuitive like route Barnham!

 

[soil]

You're right. Ascot is the best deal so far. From Ford the only fare is Any Permitted. I'm not able to check at the moment but probably the only map is CW ie along the coast. So the not via London fare from Portslade is to be interpreted as "any route along the coast that doesn't go via London". Hopefully soon these ambiguous routeings will be replaced with something intuitive like route Barnham!

The problem is that SWT have routed these tickets 'Not Via London', when they should be routed 'Any Permitted'.

Actually the whole thing is a bit confused.

BTN - Southampton has three CDR fares:
Via Barnham (Southern) restricted until after 09:00 £15
Not Via London (Southern) restricted until after 09:00 £26.50
✠Any Permitted (SWT) any train arriving London after 10:00 £58

BTN - CLJ has these CDR fares
Not Via London (Southern) any train arriving London after 09:50 £22.80
✠Any Permitted (Southern) any train arriving London after 09:50 £28

BTN - Brockenhurst has these CDR fares:
Via Barnham (Southern) after 09:00 £20
Not Via London (SWT) after 09:00 £31.20
✠Any Permitted (SWT) any train arriving London after 10:00 £63.90

Portslade - Brockenhurst has these CDR fares
Via Barnham (Southern) after 09:00 £20
Not Via London (SWT) after 09:00 £28.80

So SWT know that Portslade - Brockenhurst is not valid via London, and hence have no ✠Any Permitted fare.

But their Portslade - Brockenhurst fare, which should be routed 'Any Permitted' (minus the ✠) is completely redundant as Southern have undercut it on a fare with identical route and conditions.

I'm not really sure how this works out, but it seems to me that Southern should own this fare (given that the journey consists of 99 minutes on a Southern train, then 13 minutes on a SWT trains), and then it would just became Southern 'Any Permitted' at the same price., which is effectively the situation at the moment anyway.

 

[wintonian]

I'm not really sure how this works out, but it seems to me that Southern should own this fare (given that the journey consists of 99 minutes on a Southern train, then 13 minutes on a SWT trains), and then it would just became Southern 'Any Permitted' at the same price., which is effectively the situation at the moment anyway.

Eh? Brockenhurst is nearly 2 hours from Clapham Junction.

The current Southern offerings down here restrict you to the West Coastway i.e. via Barnham or via Ford, depending on the ticket.

 

[soil]

Eh? Brockenhurst is nearly 2 hours from Clapham Junction.

The current Southern offerings down here restrict you to the West Coastway i.e. via Barnham or via Ford, depending on the ticket.

I meant that Southern should own the fare for Portslade to Brockenhurst, since there is only one permitted route, and that 'any permitted' route is via Barnham, and because most of the route would be done on Southern trains.

There are still many discrepancies of course, due to SWT's 'rip-off fares' policy.

E.g.,

Moreton - Durrington , only SWT fares available, only one permitted route, namely Moreton - Southampton - Barnham - Durrington.
£33.40 SDS, £35 CDR, £35.10 SDR, £43.80 SVR. (Note that Weymouth/Dorchester fares are significantly higher, presumably as you can travel Castle Cary/Reading). Fares routed 'Any Permitted'
Moreton - West Worthing (next stop after Durrington):
SWT, Not Via London (no Any Permitted)
SDR £37.70
CDR £37.60
SDS £36.20

a little higher, but completely redundant because of:

Southern 'Via Barnham'
SDR £26.00
CDR £24.00
SDS £23.90
CDS £23.80

 

[wintonian]

I meant that Southern should own the fare for Portslade to Brockenhurst, since there is only one permitted route, and that 'any permitted' route is via Barnham, and because most of the route would be done on Southern trains.

Are you saying that this is not valid via Claphm then? I'm fairly sure that it would have been, taking the usual example of Southampton Ctl - Brighton.

Granted there prehaps isn't in this case but there are normaly are 3 routings from around here to the far flung south of Southern land namely ✠any permitted, not London or Clphm J not Ldn and Barnham or Ford.


Weymouth - Hastings & Southampton - Hove exemplify this.

 

[soil]

Are you saying that this is not valid via Claphm then? I'm fairly sure that it would have been, taking the usual example of Southampton Ctl - Brighton.

Granted there prehaps isn't in this case but there are normaly are 3 routings from around here to the far flung south of Southern land namely ✠any permitted, not London or Clphm J not Ldn and Barnham or Ford.


Weymouth - Hastings & Southampton - Hove exemplify this.

No it's no valid via CLJ. BTN is valid via CLJ, as explained above because it is a different routeing point, Brighton, rather than Ford.

Hove is also Brighton, but stations before Hove will be Ford, on the not via London fares. There are actually four routeings, Moreton - Durrington is Any Permittted, minus the Maltese Cross. Stations from West Worthing to Aldrington are then Not Via London, even though they should also be Any Permitted. Fares to Hove and beyond then legitimately bear Not Via London designators, as these are all valid via London otherwise.

 

[Tibbs]

Thanks for the replies everyone, very interesting discussions.

Do SWT guards have Oyster readers? I know Southern guards do, but LM guards don't. If I get the Ascot Ticket and get challenged I'd like to be able to demonstrate that I have a 1-10 Travelcard on my Oyster, or would the guard have to take my word for it?

I usually travel first on that line as I tend to travel down on a Friday evening when it's rammed and a First class ticket gets me a seat. Not really worth it for this trip as the trains are likely to be much quieter. Bit disapointed you don't get so much as a cup of tea on such a long journey (I normally go to Dorchester or Weymouth on that train).

Soil, you may have a PM incoming!

 

[johnnycache]

The discussion shows that there is still a lot of work to do to arrive at a simple fares structure for these routes. As you have seen we at Southern have worked on the value for money side of it although there are still some flows without a fare at the Southern level. There is still a lot to do to create a structure that offers-

Meaningful alternatives
Transparently communicated
At attractive prices

For somewhere like Brighton it makes sense to offer a range of routeing options

Along the coast
Via Clapham Junction
Via London

But for somewhere like Portslade we only really need one

 

[Tibbs]

I've emailed SWT asking about the 1st class upgrade issue when you use your Travelcard and another ticket. I'll be interested in the reply, but since I'm going standard now, it's irrelevant, for this journey at least.

I'll post up any reply I get.