London to Brighton fast runs.

[AM9]

Not for the first time, I came across this Video 125 video on Youtube today:

and it triggered some thoughts in my mind about how a run would fare today. The 2005 record was set using a class 377/4 carrying 300 passengers, running from London Bridge down the BML to Brighton.
A few things have changed since then that might make an even faster time possible (or not):

a class 700 could be used as it is lighter than an Electrostar but has more power available even after it being limited on 750VDC
the track layout from London Bridge to Bricklayers Arms junction might allow a quicker getaway
the track may be in better condition at key junctions, e.g. East Croydon, Haywards Heath, etc..
the driver wouldn't have Charles Horton looking over his shoulder ​

Can anybody suggest whether a faster time could be achieved, (using representative stock used on the route?)

 

[Warwick]

Could it be done faster?
Almost certainly yes.
Will it be done faster?
Well, I would refer you to GWR's attempt on the Paddington to Reading run with a powerful modern EMU, a re-signalled and re-aligned line....which failed to beat a record set by an HST some years previously.

 

[Ted633]

Something against a faster time though would be Gatwick, as (I think) they can no longer go flat out since platform 7 was put in (going southbound anyway)

 

[AM9]

Something against a faster time though would be Gatwick, as (I think) they can no longer go flat out since platform 7 was put in (going southbound anyway)

In the 2005 run, the route was set through platform 2 which iSTR was taken at 100mph. Isn't that still possible as the formations seems to be the same now?

My other observation was that the driver, on several occasions said that the effect of a 300 passenger load was slowing progress both on inclines (e.g. Forest Hill) and acceleration at various locations. I believe that a class700 (8 or 12 car) has a higher power-to-weight ratio than any Electrostar (including 387) so even an 8-car set would probably perform better on the run.

 

[Warwick]

Having recently travelled through Gatwick Airport railway station I seem to remember that platform 2 is a curvy one. I believe that 4 and 5 are the fast lines straight ones.

 

[Hophead]

Something against a faster time though would be Gatwick, as (I think) they can no longer go flat out since platform 7 was put in (going southbound anyway)

Not through platform 7 (turnout limited to 60mph, I think). However platform 5 can still be run through at linespeed, which some trains still do, though there are more trains stopping at Gatwick now, and punctuality on the line has been pretty poor during the evening peak since the timetable change.

Any record-attempting run would have to go at a quiet time, probably early on a Sunday.

 

[Darandio]

Well, I would refer you to GWR's attempt on the Paddington to Reading run with a powerful modern EMU, a re-signalled and re-aligned line....which failed to beat a record set by an HST some years previously.

When did they attempt this? Was there a thread? Thanks

 

[AM9]

When did they attempt this? Was there a thread? Thanks

If the HST run was in BR days, wasn't there a more relaxed attitude to speed limits than today's 'more than 3mph over and it's tea and no biscuits' rules?

 

[theking]

When did they attempt this? Was there a thread? Thanks

 

[gazthomas]

That music drove me bonkers!

 

[Esker-pades]

That music drove me bonkers!

Tedious, wishy-washy, middle-of-the-road strummed guitar and percussion is hardly the right music for a speed run.

 

[Warwick]

If the HST run was in BR days, wasn't there a more relaxed attitude to speed limits than today's 'more than 3mph over and it's tea and no biscuits' rules?

I would suppose rather than a more relaxed attitude perhaps a more sensible attitude in that an experienced driver could be trusted. I'd find it insulting to be treated as the London to Brighton driver was by having a bloke standing beside him with a clipboard apparently telling him/reminding him what the speed restrictions were.

 

[Mikey C]

Should have used this music (even if it might draw unfavourable comparisons with the LGV Nord for which is was written!)

 

[Esker-pades]

I was thinking something more like the 3rd movement of Summer from the Four Seasons.

 

[gazthomas]

Should have used this music (even if it might draw unfavourable comparisons with the LGV Nord for which is was written!)

I’m not sure about that either. Interesting origin though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGV_(composition)

 

[JN114]

Well, I would refer you to GWR's attempt on the Paddington to Reading run with a powerful modern EMU, a re-signalled and re-aligned line....which failed to beat a record set by an HST some years previously.

No speed limits were relaxed for the IET run, so it had to do the first couple of miles at 40 then 50mph; whereas in BR days the linespeed out of Paddington was much higher once you’d cleared the throat.

 

[JonathanH]

I would suppose rather than a more relaxed attitude perhaps a more sensible attitude in that an experienced driver could be trusted. I'd find it insulting to be treated as the London to Brighton driver was by having a bloke standing beside him with a clipboard apparently telling him/reminding him what the speed restrictions were.

It is likely that some of the speed restrictions were relaxed for the journey in a number of places - eg 100 marginally before the usual point where 100 would apply or where 90 may be the usual limit. You wouldn't want the driver to be looking at a clipboard as his job is to look where he is going and at the usual controls so it is appropriate for him to have the adjusted limits read out to him.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is likely that some of the speed restrictions were relaxed for the journey in a number of places - eg 100 marginally before the usual point where 100 would apply or where 90 may be the usual limit. You wouldn't want the driver to be looking at a clipboard as his job is to look where he is going and at the usual controls so it is appropriate for him to have the adjusted limits read out to him.

You are correct, there were several sections where the special was allowed to go at 100 on 90 mph track. When the 319s started running the Brighton fasts in the mid 1990s, most of the section from Earlswood to Balcombe tunnel was uprated to 100 mph but I'm not sure if that still applied in 2005.

 

[Bikeman78]

Something against a faster time though would be Gatwick, as (I think) they can no longer go flat out since platform 7 was put in (going southbound anyway)

The video below shows a Brighton fast belting through platform 5 around 40 seconds in. By my calculation it's only doing around 80 mph, 90 was the norm as it's slightly downhill from Earlswood. It's still possible to run non stop through platform 5 at 90 today.

 

[Taunton]

When the 319s started running the Brighton fasts in the mid 1990s, most of the section from Earlswood to Balcombe tunnel was uprated to 100 mph

When the new Gatwick Express stock took over in 1984 the conductors regularly announced that they were up at 100mph south of Earlswood until shutting off for Gatwick.

 

[Bikeman78]

When the new Gatwick Express stock took over in 1984 the conductors regularly announced that they were up at 100mph south of Earlswood until shutting off for Gatwick.

Interesting. The sign on the down fast at Earlswood definitely said 90 mph in the early 1990s. If they left them on full power in the up direction then they probably got to 100 around Stoats Nest Junction too. I usually loitered next to the middle cabs on CIG/BIG/VEP units and the speedo was usually up to the mid 90s through Purley.

 

[Warwick]

No speed limits were relaxed for the IET run, so it had to do the first couple of miles at 40 then 50mph; whereas in BR days the linespeed out of Paddington was much higher once you’d cleared the throat.

So all of those millions spent improving the line actually didn't make any improvements, it slowed the service. If it wasn't so ironic it'd be funny.

 

[JN114]

So all of those millions spent improving the line actually didn't make any improvements, it slowed the service. If it wasn't so ironic it'd be funny.

There weren’t any linespeed improvements, and the linespeed is lower because of Ladbroke Grove accident. The millions spent have brought us back to where we were, with lower line speeds and higher safety.

 

[Taunton]

There weren’t any linespeed improvements, and the linespeed is lower because of Ladbroke Grove accident. The millions spent have brought us back to where we were, with lower line speeds and higher safety.

What part of the Ladbroke Grove report identified that excessive speed limits were in any way a contributing factor, and/or that they should be reduced? I must have missed it.

 

[JN114]

What part of the Ladbroke Grove report identified that excessive speed limits were in any way a contributing factor, and/or that they should be reduced? I must have missed it.

None, but the amended signalling required lower line speeds to make Braking Distances compliant for 3 aspect signalling.

 

[rob w]

Interesting. The sign on the down fast at Earlswood definitely said 90 mph in the early 1990s. If they left them on full power in the up direction then they probably got to 100 around Stoats Nest Junction too. I usually loitered next to the middle cabs on CIG/BIG/VEP units and the speedo was usually up to the mid 90s through Purley.

Yup only if they were kept on full power.

The 60 restriction at South Croydon used to be quite far north or the platform but seems to have been brought further south now. Had some crazy runs where we were still doing around 80 passing the platforms at South Croydon with the brakes on hard.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yup only if they were kept on full power.

The 60 restriction at South Croydon used to be quite far north or the platform but seems to have been brought further south now. Had some crazy runs where we were still doing around 80 passing the platforms at South Croydon with the brakes on hard.

So many places have got more restrictive over the years. For example, down trains at Horsham through platform 3 could accelerate back up to 75 as soon as they cleared the junction north of the station. This meant that trains could (and did) depart at full power heading south. Now it's 25 mph until you clear the pointwork south of the station, even though it's the same track layout as before and the route from platform 3 is straight. It's very strange watching trains crawl past the car park heading south.

 

[Warwick]

"...with lower line speeds and greater safety". Why not just put a blanket restriction of 30 mph over the complete system? Then it would be really safe.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Walking pace and a man with a red flag surely. .!

 

[tsr]

So many places have got more restrictive over the years. For example, down trains at Horsham through platform 3 could accelerate back up to 75 as soon as they cleared the junction north of the station. This meant that trains could (and did) depart at full power heading south. Now it's 25 mph until you clear the pointwork south of the station, even though it's the same track layout as before and the route from platform 3 is straight. It's very strange watching trains crawl past the car park heading south.

The trackbed through the Horsham station area has recently had a lot of geological and “wet bed” issues. This may well account for any changes to lower speeds. The junctions also get a hammering with very diverse movements being accommodated, although marginally less now that TL run fixed formations which do not have different portions working in and out of sidings. (When it was the centre of Southern’s universe, a couple of years ago, the stock workings really were a sight to behold!) It’s not just the bits north of the station, even though those have caused a lot of the headaches.