London Terminals validity from Dartford

[redreni]

Does anybody know the full list of London Terminal stations that you can go to with an off-peak day return Dartford to London Terminals?

I know London Bridge, Cannon Street, Waterloo East, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City Thameslink and Victoria should be fine. I know St Pancras is not fine as there's a load of specific rules which I don't fully understand which stop people from the north using the southern terminals and vice versa.

I wondered about Liverpool Street and Paddington, though?

 

[island]

Liverpool Street ought to be accepted (changing to Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood) but won't because TfL wants you to think the Paddington to Abbey Wood section counts as Underground.

Paddington ought not to be accepted.

As well as those you mentioned, Elephant & Castle and Vauxhall would also be valid choices.

St Pancras will be accepted if your ticket is route PLUS HIGH SPEED.

 

[redreni]

Liverpool Street ought to be accepted (changing to Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood) but won't because TfL wants you to think the Paddington to Abbey Wood section counts as Underground.

Paddington ought not to be accepted.

As well as those you mentioned, Elephant & Castle and Vauxhall would also be valid choices.

St Pancras will be accepted if your ticket is route PLUS HIGH SPEED.

Cheers!

Out of interest what's the specific restriction that means that ticket isn't valid to Paddington? BRfares returns it as a result but the forum's ticketing website doesn't suggest it. I can see why TfL wouldn't want it to be valid to Paddington since there's no break of journey restriction on the ticket...

What about Moorgate?

 

[JonathanH]

Out of interest what's the specific restriction that means that ticket isn't valid to Paddington?

When you say Paddington, you mean via the Elizabeth Line?

This - https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informati...ing-you-need-to-know-about-the-elizabeth-line.

Using London Terminals tickets on the Elizabeth line

The Elizabeth line has two 'London Terminal' stations on its route - London Paddington National Rail station and London Liverpool Street National Rail station.

Tickets for National Rail services to/from London Terminals are not valid on the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Liverpool Street. Customers using these tickets must buy a separate ticket or use pay as you go to travel beyond Paddington (if travelling from the west) or Liverpool Street (if travelling from the east).

 

[island]

Out of interest what's the specific restriction that means that ticket isn't valid to Paddington?

The usual "rule" that once you've reached a London terminal you can't go any further other than to other London terminals – and Farringdon, TCR and Bond Street aren't London terminals.

 

[The exile]

For once the various restrictions and logic basically overlap. The “London Terminals” is effectively shorthand for “the London terminus at the end of the valid route you are using to get to (not through - hence “terminal”) London. Is there, for example a logical route from (say) Southend into the terminal platforms at Marylebone or Victoria or Paddington. Think all Southern terminals are interchangeable…. Accept that Thaneslink and Crossrail have muddied the waters - but not if you think of the ticket as getting you to your first contact with the Circle Line (as a rule of thumb!)

 

[jon81uk]

Liverpool Street ought to be accepted (changing to Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood) but won't because TfL wants you to think the Paddington to Abbey Wood section counts as Underground.

Paddington ought not to be accepted.

As well as those you mentioned, Elephant & Castle and Vauxhall would also be valid choices.

St Pancras will be accepted if your ticket is route PLUS HIGH SPEED.

Paddington isn't a terminal from Dartford as you've already gone past Liverpool Street.

 

[redreni]

When you say Paddington, you mean via the Elizabeth Line?

This - https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informati...ing-you-need-to-know-about-the-elizabeth-line.

That's helpful, thanks.

It definitely makes sense to me that once you've reached a London terminal you can't then travel through non-terminal stations to another London terminal. And that's in line with what TfL is saying.

I'll also be sure to have that page handy if travelling to Liverpool Street from Kent or SE London via Abbey Wood on a London Terminals ticket (although I'm not sure if they may have intended that wording to be even more restrictive than it actually is).

It's only because BRfares returned an off-peak return to London Terminals on a search for journeys from Dartford to Paddington that I thought it would be worth checking (I know that's not a guarantee of validity). But given the significant disparity between what TfL says about break of journey on EL and what the NRCoT say, I thought it would be worth checking to see if the actual published routing guidance and/or ticket restrictions on that particular ticket correspond to TfL's view of what's valid and what isn't?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2023 ==

Paddington isn't a terminal from Dartford as you've already gone past Liverpool Street.

Well, yes, although if I go to Cannon Street I've already gone past London Bridge and that's valid. But I appreciate that, as others have said, it might make a difference that you have to go through non-London terminal stations after Liverpool Street to get to Paddington.

 

[Haywain]

Paddington ought not to be accepted.

And is definitely not valid.

 

[Alex365Dash]

It's only because BRfares returned an off-peak return to London Terminals on a search for journeys from Dartford to Paddington that I thought it would be worth checking (I know that's not a guarantee of validity).

BRFares knows what station groups a station is in but not the route to get to them - so whilst Paddington may not be a London Terminal, it’s not a valid destination from Dartford.

But given the significant disparity between what TfL says about break of journey on EL and what the NRCoT say, I thought it would be worth checking to see if the actual published routing guidance and/or ticket restrictions on that particular ticket correspond to TfL's view of what's valid and what isn't?

Whilst there aren’t any mapped routes from Dartford to London Group via the Elizabeth line, it is within three miles of the shortest route to a London Terminal (16mi 1ch via EL to London Liverpool Street compared to 15mi 13ch direct to London Bridge).

Good luck trying to get through Liverpool Street gateline on that basis though!

 

[Edvid]

I know it's been four months, but it's worth noting the status of Liverpool Street as a London Terminal for passengers changing at Abbey Wood is included within TfL's latest Ticketing and Revenue Update. From page 11 in issue 147:

The opening of the Elizabeth line has also opened up some new journey options and customers from Southeastern now have the option of changing on to the Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood and Liverpool Street is now therefore a valid London Terminal for customers using this route, rather than travelling into Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

Although these London Terminals tickets should work our gates at Liverpool Street, they do not currently work the gates in the new Liverpool Street (Broadgate) ticket hall or at Moorgate, which now provides access to and from the Elizabeth line platforms. However, these tickets are valid for travel to / from Liverpool Street and customers can use these gatelines to gain access to / from the Elizabeth line. This is due to the fact that tickets from these NR stations can only currently be accepted at one LU NLC.

We are currently in discussions with Cubic to try and resolve this issue by adopting a group NLC solution previously used to allow tickets to work the multiple NLCS at Kings Cross LU station.

 

[redreni]

I know it's been four months, but it's worth noting the status of Liverpool Street as a London Terminal for passengers changing at Abbey Wood is included within TfL's latest Ticketing and Revenue Update. From page 11 in issue 147:

Thanks!

 

[Watershed]

I know it's been four months, but it's worth noting the status of Liverpool Street as a London Terminal for passengers changing at Abbey Wood is included within TfL's latest Ticketing and Revenue Update. From page 11 in issue 147:

Well, it's good news that TfL now officially recognises this. Wouldn't hurt to add Liverpool Street to the London Terminals data feed though (not that this has ever been comprehensively accurate), and to get the Routeing Guide and other parts of the industry data updated to match this.

 

[yorkie]

This is good news; I always maintained that the contractual/legal position was that Liverpool Street was a permitted terminal/route for such journeys, and that TfL were wrong to deny this validity on the erroneous basis that Abbey Wood to Liverpool Street is purportedly/ostensibly a part of London Underground (!)

It is good to see TfL admitting they were wrong, and indeed I'd like to know how TfL thought they were going to get away with this; they could have saved a lot of hassle by listening to us in the first place. Perhaps the relevant people from TfL either didn't read this forum (unlikely) or simply thought they could defy what was written by the experts here?

Perhaps there was a threat of legal action against them or something; I don't know, but clearly something has happened to finally make TfL see sense.

However some changes will no doubt need to be made before industry systems can start issuing tickets with this validity...

 

[miklcct]

This is good news; I always maintained that the contractual/legal position was that Liverpool Street was a permitted terminal/route for such journeys, and that TfL were wrong to deny this validity on the erroneous basis that Abbey Wood to Liverpool Street is purportedly/ostensibly a part of London Underground (!)

It is good to see TfL admitting they were wrong, and indeed I'd like to know how TfL thought they were going to get away with this; they could have saved a lot of hassle by listening to us in the first place. Perhaps the relevant people from TfL either didn't read this forum (unlikely) or simply thought they could defy what was written by the experts here?

Perhaps there was a threat of legal action against them or something; I don't know, but clearly something has happened to finally make TfL see sense.

However some changes will no doubt need to be made before industry systems can start issuing tickets with this validity...

Do you know that if these tickets work the barriers at Whitechapel as well (like those from the Great Eastern Main Line mentioned before)?

 

[hkstudent]

I know it's been four months, but it's worth noting the status of Liverpool Street as a London Terminal for passengers changing at Abbey Wood is included within TfL's latest Ticketing and Revenue Update. From page 11 in issue 147:

Though I would add a pint of salt on the information.
Internal communication to frontline staff don’t always be the most accurate position but the position that allow staff work in the most customers friendly way or operation-effective way.
As long as the industry data still show Liverpool Street is not London terminal to the south east (in NR London terminal webpage, ticketing data, etc), I would still be sceptical about the redesignation as a London terminal.

 

[redreni]

This is good news; I always maintained that the contractual/legal position was that Liverpool Street was a permitted terminal/route for such journeys, and that TfL were wrong to deny this validity on the erroneous basis that Abbey Wood to Liverpool Street is purportedly/ostensibly a part of London Underground (!)

It is good to see TfL admitting they were wrong, and indeed I'd like to know how TfL thought they were going to get away with this; they could have saved a lot of hassle by listening to us in the first place. Perhaps the relevant people from TfL either didn't read this forum (unlikely) or simply thought they could defy what was written by the experts here?

Perhaps there was a threat of legal action against them or something; I don't know, but clearly something has happened to finally make TfL see sense.

However some changes will no doubt need to be made before industry systems can start issuing tickets with this validity...

Hopefully they've seen sense on NR ticket validity through the EL core more generally, including break of journey.

 

[Class800]

Hopefully they've seen sense on NR ticket validity through the EL core more generally, including break of journey.

I've used a Plumstead to various places the other side of London (e.g. Birmingham stations) ticket with Maltese cross in order to start at Woolwich Elizabeth on a number of occasions, as you're not (I believe) meant to start an itinerary with a walk (if I bought from Woolwich Arsenal). This is a break of journey/starting short but is never an issue. I've not broken my journey elsewhere on Elizabeth yet

 

[hkstudent]

I've used a Plumstead to various places the other side of London (e.g. Birmingham stations) ticket with Maltese cross in order to start at Woolwich Elizabeth on a number of occasions, as you're not (I believe) meant to start an itinerary with a walk (if I bought from Woolwich Arsenal). This is a break of journey/starting short but is never an issue. I've not broken my journey elsewhere on Elizabeth yet

It’s not an issue as its considered as a out of station interchange in the eyes of EL.
So commonly, if start at Custom House/Canary Wharf is also ok.