London Terminals - has something changed?

[sheff1]

I don't think it's justifiable to feel entitled to use the Circle without paying,

I can't see anyone suggesting they are entitled to use the Circle (from Kings Cross to Moorgate) without paying.

 

[maniacmartin]

I would guess that you are paying with the London Terminals ticket though. As the route is mentioned in the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement, there is likely to be some revenue allocated to London Underground

 

[rebmcr]

I would guess that you are paying with the London Terminals ticket though. As the route is mentioned in the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement, there is likely to be some revenue allocated to London Underground

If that's the case then I retract my statements.

 

[greyman42]

So would a ticket from York to London terminals be valid on the Underground from Kings Cross to Moorgate?

I recently enquired at York travel centre on this matter and was told the ticket was not valid to Moorgate via the Underground and never had been.

 

[Blackbat]

I would guess that you are paying with the London Terminals ticket though. As the route is mentioned in the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement, there is likely to be some revenue allocated to London Underground

Interestingly the additional cost for an all zones travelcard on top of the annual gold card season into KGX/MOG is around £1300 above the price of the London terminals ticket. Travelling in to London from, say, Woking the additional cost is ~£800. Could the additional travelcard cost into KGX be something to do with funding the inter-available KGX-MOG route?

 

[paul1609]

Interestingly the additional cost for an all zones travelcard on top of the annual gold card season into KGX/MOG is around £1300 above the price of the London terminals ticket. Travelling in to London from, say, Woking the additional cost is ~£800. Could the additional travelcard cost into KGX be something to do with funding the inter-available KGX-MOG route?

No it takes in to account that on season tickets to London Terminals from the former Southern Region you can use such a wide range of terminals that if you are travelling to Zone one only the benefits of travel card are quite marginal.

 

[Surreytraveller]

No it takes in to account that on season tickets to London Terminals from the former Southern Region you can use such a wide range of terminals that if you are travelling to Zone one only the benefits of travel card are quite marginal.

Indeed. I am south of the Thames, and when I go London I just pick my London Terminal and walk from there. The only times I tend to use the Underground is if I need to go to Paddington. From where I am I can easily travel to Victoria, Waterloo, Charing Cross, Canon Street, London Bridge, Blackfriars City Thameslink, St Pancras etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed. I am south of the Thames, and when I go London I just pick my London Terminal and walk from there. The only times I tend to use the Underground is if I need to go to Paddington. From where I am I can easily travel to Victoria, Waterloo, Charing Cross, Canon Street, London Bridge, Blackfriars City Thameslink, St Pancras etc.

But not to St Pancras on a “London Terminals” ticket of course, as you probably already know.

 

[Surreytraveller]

But not to St Pancras on a “London Terminals” ticket of course, as you probably already know.

Yes, I know. And to Farringdon as well you can't use a London Terminals ticket. I was just commenting on the lack of a need to use the Underground if coming from the south. But then I don't need a London Terminals ticket to use a London Terminal

 

[paul1609]

But not to St Pancras on a “London Terminals” ticket of course, as you probably already know.

If you want a ticket available to St Pancras there is a season thats the same cost from most Sussex and Kent stations and about £2 a week more from SWR stations Route London Not Underground. The only terminals that you loose are Cannon Street, Victoria and Charing Cross.

 

[swt_passenger]

If you want a ticket available to St Pancras there is a season thats the same cost from most Sussex and Kent stations and about £2 a week more from SWR stations Route London Not Underground. The only terminals that you loose are Cannon Street, Victoria and Charing Cross.

Yes I know, I just wanted to clarify for anyone reading Surreytraveller’s original post which can be read as a list of valid London Terminals...

 

[sheff1]

I recently enquired at York travel centre on this matter and was told the ticket was not valid to Moorgate via the Underground and never had been.

Very disappointing, as York Travel Centre's knowledge has been praised on here in the past. The ticket you enquired about has been valid to Moorgate for decades, and still is.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Very disappointing, as York Travel Centre's knowledge has been praised on here in the past. The ticket you enquired about has been valid to Moorgate for decades, and still is.

It's not really that well known north of Watford, I'd guess you'd get the same answer at Newcastle.

 

[sheff1]

And they, too, would be lying.

Why say the ticket was not valid and never had been, if you don't know ? Why make something up, rather than look something up ?

 

[Haywain]

And they, too, would be lying.

No, they would be wrong. Lying involves deliberately misleading someone, which is not what would be happening.

 

[Hadders]

I passed through Kings Cross St Pancras earlier and couldn't see the posters on London Terminals ticket acceptance.

 

[greyman42]

I travelled from York to Kings Cross yesterday with a 'London Terminals' ticket and attempted to travel onto Moorgate. The barrier at the Underground would not open using my ticket so I asked a staff member to let me through, explaining where I was going and showing him my ticket. He refused to let me through, explain that the ticket was only valid to Kings Cross. I explained that it was a 'London Terminals' ticket and that the Underground to Moorgate was a valid route. He still refused to let me through so I asked to see a supervisor. At that another member of staff came over, checked my ticket and opened the barrier for me, saying it was valid. So it would seem that if you have the time and the inclination to argue your case, you will be allowed to travel onto Moorgate. There were no problems at Moorgate as the station does not have a barrier at its exit.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I travelled from York to Kings Cross yesterday with a 'London Terminals' ticket and attempted to travel onto Moorgate. The barrier at the Underground would not open using my ticket so I asked a staff member to let me through, explaining where I was going and showing him my ticket. He refused to let me through, explain that the ticket was only valid to Kings Cross. I explained that it was a 'London Terminals' ticket and that the Underground to Moorgate was a valid route. He still refused to let me through so I asked to see a supervisor. At that another member of staff came over, checked my ticket and opened the barrier for me, saying it was valid. So it would seem that if you have the time and the inclination to argue your case, you will be allowed to travel onto Moorgate. There were no problems at Moorgate as the station does not have a barrier at its exit.

There is a point where this kind of rejection and misleading as to passengers' contractual rights - and making the misrepresentation that they must spend more to redeem the rights they already have - becomes a criminal offence. I would suggest LU need to be very careful to ensure it doesn't proceed to that level... Despite being a publicly-owned and operated service, they are not immune to unfair trading prosecutions!

I think LU management need to have a long hard think about these kinds of things; perhaps another staff memo to gateline staff at the relevant station, along with mystery shopping resulting in disciplinary action for staff who don't follow the memo.

 

[island]

What criminal offence would that be?

 

[OwenB]

I travelled from York to Kings Cross yesterday with a 'London Terminals' ticket and attempted to travel onto Moorgate. The barrier at the Underground would not open using my ticket so I asked a staff member to let me through, explaining where I was going and showing him my ticket. He refused to let me through, explain that the ticket was only valid to Kings Cross. I explained that it was a 'London Terminals' ticket and that the Underground to Moorgate was a valid route. He still refused to let me through so I asked to see a supervisor. At that another member of staff came over, checked my ticket and opened the barrier for me, saying it was valid. So it would seem that if you have the time and the inclination to argue your case, you will be allowed to travel onto Moorgate. There were no problems at Moorgate as the station does not have a barrier at its exit.

do people really need to be having this kind of argument each time they want to use a valid ticket for their route? There must be a better way. It's almost forcing people to buy tickets to include zones 1 and 2 for a quiet life.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What criminal offence would that be?

There are plenty which might apply depending on the exact circumstances. Fraud, unfair trading, etc.

 

[island]

I fear you may be substituting your desire to punish train companies for the law. But it would be interesting if such a case came up.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I fear you may be substituting your desire to punish train companies for the law. But it would be interesting if such a case came up.

I don't want to punish them. I want them to abide by the law just as all passengers are expected to. It's always best when both parties are in compliance with the law, and with their contractual obligations.

I will be interested to see if we get further reports of problems using similar tickets in the future. I would be particularly interested if anyone complains to TfL and to see their response.

 

[Kite159]

Keep having arguments and chances are the validity will be formally removed with TFL saying passengers for Moorgate should change at Finsbury Park.

After all in South London not all trains from Basingstoke call at Clapham Junction, yet tickets to London terminals are valid to London Victoria. I can't see anybody campaigning for those tickets to be valid on LU to allow the punters to go via Waterloo instead of selecting a service which calls at Clapham to change?

 

[sefton]

If you are refused travel from Kings Cross to Moorgate how about claiming a refund on your ticket as you had to abandon your journey as they refused to provide the service.

Pedantic - yes, but then the train companies started it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If you are refused travel from Kings Cross to Moorgate how about claiming a refund on your ticket as you had to abandon your journey as they refused to provide the service.

Pedantic - yes, but then the train companies started it.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it is TfL, not the TOCs, that are in breach of contract whenever they refuse travel. It is somewhat of a legal grey area as to whether TfL acts as an agent of the TOCs in transporting you around London (as LUL are never explicitly mentioned in the NRCoT, only "the Underground" is), or whether you have an agreement with the relevant TOCs as well as with TfL. But ok either case, from a practical perspective it's TfL you need to be taking to task when there are problems.

In any case, I doubt that you could claim a refund for an annual season ticket merely because you were denied travel once. If it happened repeatedly then I would say there is an argument that you are entitled to a fee-free pro-rata refund as of the date you return the season ticket. And perhaps if you returned to your origin and abandoned your journey then you would be entitled to the cost of one journey back as a refund (in the same way that "one journey" on a season ticket is calculated for delay compensation purposes).

 

[sefton]

So for season ticket holders they argue for 15 minutes and then claim Delay Repay.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So for season ticket holders they argue for 15 minutes and then claim Delay Repay.

But it's TfL that are delaying you. Can you claim delay compensation from TfL? It's a grey area.

 

[sefton]

But it's TfL that are delaying you. Can you claim delay compensation from TfL? It's a grey area.

Why claim from TFL? Just submit the claim to the company which sold you the ticket claiming it would get you to Moorgate (and which TFL says it doesn't) and let the two of them argue it out.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Why claim from TFL? Just submit the claim to the company which sold you the ticket claiming it would get you to Moorgate (and which TFL says it doesn't) and let the two of them argue it out.

It's not quite that easy. You don't claim compensation for delays from the retailer (unless the retailer happens to be the same as the TOC that delayed you). It is only refunds that you claim from the retailer - for example, where you no longer want to travel, whether for a reason that has nothing to do with the railway, or due to something the railway has or hasn't done.

In any case, even if this procedure did not exist, the retailer is acting as an agent of the TOCs whose trains you are permitted to travel on, and so unless they are both the same, you would need to engage with the principal - the agent - regarding problems using your ticket.