London Terminals and LUL

[mark2606]

Hi,

I have just been fined by LUL revenue protection @ Fins Park. I have a weekly rail ticket from Cuffley to London Terminals.

I was told that in the fares manual it stipulates that travel on LUL is permitted between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross via either the Victoria or Piccadilly Lines. Therefore I have been doing this but when stopped today, LUL revenue protection said they have never heard of this. I was told I had a national rail ticket and this was not valid.

If this is the case why do the barriers open at Kings Cross using this ticket. I entered Kings Cross for my journey and was transferring between the Victoria Line and my National Rail train at Finsbury Park when I was stopped. The officer said he had never heard of this rule. I asked him to look into the fares manual and said he does not have this and I will issue you with a penalty notice.

I intend to appeal. Can anyone help? Am I in the right and will my appeal be successful? FCC have previously told me that this is ok,

Thanks for your help guys

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Can we be quite clear about what you have been issued by the Inspector? You refer to a 'fine' and also to a 'penalty notice'. I'll guess it is a Penalty Fare.
And what was your actual journey?

The Fares Manual does indeed explain arrangements for "Inter-available Routes" which includes Finsbury Park to London Terminals (which includes Kings Cross when travelling from the north):

Inter-available Routes – National Rail tickets valid on LU/DLR services

Subject to tickets being valid between the appropriate stations or for the zones shown, National Rail singles, returns and Season Tickets are valid on LU /DLR services as shown below:

National Rail tickets which include validity . . . .
Between Finsbury Park and London Terminals

are also valid on LU / DLR services . . .
between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross / St Pancras Und. but intermediately at Highbury & Islington only (Victoria Line / Piccadilly Line)

and also

between Kings Cross / St Pancras Und. and Moorgate (via Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and Northern Lines, but intermediately at Old Street ONLY)

AND

National Rail tickets which include validity . . . .
Between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington

are also valid on LU / DLR services . . .
between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington (Victoria Line)

Out of interest, a reciprocal arrangement is listed for passengers using TfL tickets on the mainlines:

Inter-available Routes – LU/DLR tickets valid on National Rail services

LU and DLR single & return paper tickets and Group Day Tickets, for which the appropriate zonal fare has been paid, are also valid on National Rail services between the following stations:

. . .

Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate

These details can be found in the Fares Manual in the section titled "London", sub-section "'Joint’ stations & inter-available routes"

As for the barriers, I would never assume that, either, a ticket is invalid if a barrier rejects it, nor, that a ticket is valid if a barrier accepts it. They're not very sophisticated machines.

 

[mark2606]

Hi Dave,

Thank you very much for your response.

My travel was from Kings Cross LUL via the Victoria Line to Finsbury Park where I would then connect with my NR service to Cuffley. The Inspector stopped me between my transfer from the LUL Victoria Line to my FCC service.

I have a weekly season ticket from Cuffley to London Terminals.

So basically from your info my ticket was valid and I was not in the wrong? If my appeal is successful will the Inspector be informed of the outcome so he does not make the same mistake again?

If I appeal do I need to quote the 'inter-route availability' or will they know straight away?

Thanks

Mark

 

[maniacmartin]

It is a rather obscure rule that is not well known about, and it can be hard to track down documents that detail it, however it does exist.

The Fares Manual quoted by DaveNewcastleshould be accessible to all Natonal Rail ticket office staff through their computer system but it isn't directly accessible to the public

You can see details of the inverse agreement at the bottom of page 34 of TfL's Conditions of Carriage

It's also detailed in this document by London Travelwatch under section 2.6 (Interavailable sections)

Also in the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement, (the contract between London Underground and the National Rail Train Operating Companies) on page 60

In 2009?, First Capital Connect confirmed the interavailability (Question 162 by Mr James Fairchild)

You are correct a London Terminals ticket is valid to Kings Cross/ Old Street and Moorgate, but not to intermediate stations, and does not just apply when the Northern City Line is closed or suspended

They may not know straight away. If they do not, I would quote section 7 of schedule 3 of the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement, as I believe that is the document from which all the others are derived. Others may advise differently

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So basically from your info my ticket was valid and I was not in the wrong?

That is how it appears to me.

If my appeal is successful will the Inspector be informed of the outcome so he does not make the same mistake again?

I wouldn't count on that happening. Staff briefing notes are produced in response to findings of poor front-line knowledge in certain areas or their work, but I'd be very surprised if this single instance of a relatively minor ticketing arrangement is likely to result in a staff briefing note.

If you disagree and think it is an important matter, then by all means ask for staff training in your letter, but don't expect too much.

If I appeal do I need to quote the 'inter-route availability' or will they know straight away?

I was developing your own statement on here that "I was told that in the fares manual it stipulates that travel on LUL is permitted between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross via either the Victoria or Piccadilly Lines.". I'm suggesting that you use that statement in your reply, but to improve the prospects of your success, you can add the section name : "I was told that in the fares manual it stipulates that travel on LUL is permitted between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross via either the Victoria or Piccadilly Lines, and that this can be found under "London" - "'Joint’ stations & inter-available routes" ."
But if you want to quote any of the detail, then perhaps you should use some of the documents which maniacmartin suggests.

I'd never assume that the person reading your letter knows the contents of the Fares Manual.

 

[sheff1]

The officer said he had never heard of this rule. I asked him to look into the fares manual and said he does not have this and I will issue you with a penalty notice.

I intend to appeal. Can anyone help? Am I in the right and will my appeal be successful? FCC have previously told me that this is ok,

So he had never heard of it, couldn't/wouldn't look it up, but issued a Penalty Fare anyway .... just about sums up the dysfunctional railway unfortunately.

As others have said you are, of course, right. As to whether your appeal will be successful .... a read of other threads on here suggests possibly not at the outset, but if you persist they will eventually back down.

 

[mark2606]

Thanks for all your help guys. I will certainly not be backing down. No way am I paying a Penalty Fare Notice when I had a valid ticket which covered the whole of my journey.

I am planning on putting in my letter that the Inspector needs to be re-trained. I make this journey everyday. If the staff are not made aware of this, I will be issued Penalty Fare Notices all the time.

I will keep you posted when I hear something.

 

[David Goddard]

Good luck with the appeal. I hope you are successful.

 

[Mojo]

I'd never assume that the person reading your letter knows the contents of the Fares Manual.

I would agree, as the documentation referred to and quoted from (as a ''Fares Manual'') is produced by Atoc and does not apply to LUL, just because Atoc documentation says it does! However this is a moot point in this case, as the Atoc documentation relating to this particular case is correct (as others have said, and provided multiple accurate sources for).

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if these easements will finally end when the Moorgate branch stays open late in the week and weekends? Clearly the easement is to allow the tube to be used when the Northern City line is closed (no need to arrange ticket acceptance separately) but could easily just change to temporary acceptance during disruption from then on.

You can see why you can currently use the tube from FPK because of the ability to also travel to Highbury & Islington and not other stations between. I'm not entirely sure why it allows the Piccadilly line to be used, other than the fact it would be hard to detect unless checks are done on the train.

 

[Mojo]

I don't think this Interavailability of tickets is anything to do with the Northern City line; you may be thinking of the one that allows tickets to London Terminals that are valid between Finsbury Pk and Kings + to be used between Kings +, Old St, and Moorgate by LU. There are of other similar routes like Liv St -> Stratford, Marylebone/Baker St -> Amersham which are also Interavailable.

 

[jon0844]

I think it is, because of the ability to get to Highbury & Islington via the Victoria line when the Moorgate trains aren't running. I guess it then makes sense to also continue to King's Cross, where you could use the Northern line to Old Street and Moorgate.

I am sure it's all part of the same thing.

 

[D365]

Or SSL to Moorgate. I know people who have come into Kings Cross on GN Outer and finished at Moorgate on Northern/SSL for years without problem.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The interavailability between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate almost certainly dates back to the days when BR ran through services onto the "Widened Lines" (now Thameslink) via York Road on the Up side and Hotel Curve on the Down.

Unfortunately, the TfL Conditions of Carriage only mentions the list of NR routes where LU tickets are interavailable, not the other way round. I'll have to ask a tame member of LU staff I know if there's anything in their Ticketing and Revenue Handbooks or on their Intranet about it.

 

[34D]

I wonder if these easements will finally end when the Moorgate branch stays open late in the week and weekends? Clearly the easement is to allow the tube to be used when the Northern City line is closed (no need to arrange ticket acceptance separately) but could easily just change to temporary acceptance during disruption from then on.

You can see why you can currently use the tube from FPK because of the ability to also travel to Highbury & Islington and not other stations between. I'm not entirely sure why it allows the Piccadilly line to be used, other than the fact it would be hard to detect unless checks are done on the train.

Will they have acquired any protected status though?

Any details about Moorgate opening longer?

 

[jon0844]

I think it's in the TSGN franchise documents, but I'm not sure it's a given or just an invite for a bidder to offer to run trains seven days a week.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Will they have acquired any protected status though?

Any details about Moorgate opening longer?

It is in the ITT for the new franchise - from December 2015 - the plan is for services to run to Moorgate all times to "broadly LUL times" due to the changing business and leisure activities around Old Street , Highbury etc. Also for a better off peak frequency on the WGC / Hertord lines + more peak trains in due course.

 

[Mojo]

I'll have to ask a tame member of LU staff I know if there's anything in their Ticketing and Revenue Handbooks or on their Intranet about it.

There is a list of Joint Availability NR -> LU routes in one of the appendices to the T & R books.

 

[mark2606]

There is a list of Joint Availability NR -> LU routes in one of the appendices to the T & R books.

Thanks, what is a T & R book? I need all the evidence I can get to ensure a successful appeal.

 

[maniacmartin]

Ticketting and Revenue Handbooks are booklets that describe ticket validity for London Underground ticket office staff (similar to "The Manual" for National Rail ticket offices). They are not readily available to the public

It's printed in multiple volumes. You can request it under the Freedom of Information Act, or if you have a friendly local tube ticket office, they might be willing to photocopy the relevant pages for you

 

[RJ]

Unfortunately, the TfL Conditions of Carriage only mentions the list of NR routes where LU tickets are interavailable, not the other way round. I'll have to ask a tame member of LU staff I know if there's anything in their Ticketing and Revenue Handbooks or on their Intranet about it.

I had a look on the intranet. It's on Page 2 of Appendix 3 to the Ticketing and Revenue Handbook under the heading "JOINT AVAILABILITY BETWEEN LU RAIL AND NR SERVICES."

It says that NR season tickets between Finsbury Park and London Terminals are available to use on LU services to King's Cross, Old Street and Moorgate (but not intermediately at Arsenal, Holloway Road, Caledonian Road, Angel, Farringdon or Barbican.)

 

[swt_passenger]

Will they have acquired any protected status though?

They removed the inter-availabilty from the Thameslink route into Moorgate within a year of the service closure.

(That's one of the issues with the 'Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement', quoted in post #4, it is now out of date for that route.)

It's quite possible they'd do the same again, they could even call it 'simplification'...

 

[jon0844]

Does it actually say season tickets? My wife got to Moorgate via tube with a day ticket.

 

[RJ]

Does it actually say season tickets? My wife got to Moorgate via tube with a day ticket.

There are two columns - one for season tickets, the other for PAYG, Single and Return tickets. In this case, they have identical text to the effect of what I posted.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is in the ITT for the new franchise - from December 2015 - the plan is for services to run to Moorgate all times to "broadly LUL times" due to the changing business and leisure activities around Old Street , Highbury etc. Also for a better off peak frequency on the WGC / Hertord lines + more peak trains in due course.

To elaborate on the above, an Annex to the ITT giving the Train Service Requirement tables covers the 7 day service to Moorgate from 2015.

The text explaining the requirement is in the Stakeholder Briefing rather than the ITT, and the way it reads it is definitely a statement of fact, rather than an option:

December 2015 onwards
4.87 From December 2015, trains running via Finsbury Park will no longer be
diverted to King’s Cross at certain times but terminate at Moorgate,
where the extended opening times will broadly match those at London
Overground stations. This recognises the increased activity late at night
and at weekends in the Old Street / Moorgate area, and allows
customers to take advantage of the improved interchange with the
London Overground services at Highbury & Islington.

 

[jon0844]

There are two columns - one for season tickets, the other for PAYG, Single and Return tickets. In this case, they have identical text to the effect of what I posted.

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

Let's see what happens to the easement when Moorgate trains start running as normal. Perhaps if they stop a bit earlier than the tube the permission will remain (or it's forgotten about!).

 

[34D]

They removed the inter-availabilty from the Thameslink route into Moorgate within a year of the service closure.

(That's one of the issues with the 'Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement', quoted in post #4, it is now out of date for that route.)

It's quite possible they'd do the same again, they could even call it 'simplification'...

No. There never was a thameslink dual arrangement for passengers going on the LMR to Moorgate.

Tickets were only valid on the few trains that ran from Kentish Town (and north thereof) to Moorgate (LM)

 

[stevefreestone]

Interestingly, staff at Waterloo BR used to regularly turn down London Travelcards if they were purchased via London Underground, as they didn't show a BR logo. That was in the mid 90s. Despite being told to accept them by management, the gate staff regularly refused them.

 

[thedbdiboy]

To get back to the OP's issue,:
- As one of the defined inter-available LUL/NR routes the OP's ticket was valid
- The Penalty Fare should be appealed on these grounds
- It should be withdrawn without further argument
- If not, take it up with London TravelWatch

This is one of those areas where on statutory grounds there should be no argument!

 

[Clip]

So he had never heard of it, couldn't/wouldn't look it up, but issued a Penalty Fare anyway .... just about sums up the dysfunctional railway unfortunately.

As others have said you are, of course, right. As to whether your appeal will be successful .... a read of other threads on here suggests possibly not at the outset, but if you persist they will eventually back down.

Im unsure what the dysfunctional railway has to do with it seeing as this arrangement has been around for years and the OP was caught by a TfL revenue inspector.