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London-Stevenage Evening Peak Confusion

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stut

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I don't know if this is as a result of the new EC timetable, but it seems to have got horribly confusing, with a specific condition seemingly now introduced for tickets to/from Stevenage.

East Coast evening peak is 15:55-19:01
FCC evening peak is 16:30-19:01

I was on the 16:08 KGX-NNG today, and it must have been about half the passengers in there who had absolutely no idea that Off-Peak tickets weren't valid (was it just that there never used to be an EC service to Stevenage between 15:30 and 16:30 before?)

On top of that, there were no signs in evidence in King's Cross to advise you of this restriction, nothing on the departure boards, and nothing announced on board the train.

Is this worth a complaint to EC, do you reckon?

Ah, simplified fares, eh!
 
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OwlMan

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What type of ticket are you talking about as not all off peak tickets from Stevenage to London have the same restriction codes and tickets from London to Stevenage have different codes.

Peter
 

stut

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Return half of an Off-Peak Day Return/Travelcard from Stevenage.
 

Squaddie

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The very fact that a TOC can unilaterally decide to begin the "evening peak" at 3.55pm is outrageous.
 

stut

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And just to add a twist...

Both FCC and East Coast booking engines will let you reserve a seat on the 16:08 when purchasing an off-peak return/travelcard.
 

OwlMan

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Where did you get the idea it was not valid from - a return half of aaoff peak day return is valid on that train - restriction code L4
The Manual
Outward Travel
Return Travel
Valid on the Train shown and all later services
Kings Lynn
0827
Watlington
0834
Downham Market
0840
Littleport
0849
Ely
0857
Waterbeach
0907
Cambridge
0855
Foxton
0905
Shepreth
0907
Meldreth
0910
Royston (Herts)
0915
Ashwell & Morden
0920
Baldock
0925
Letchworth Garden City
0929
Peterborough
0846
Huntingdon
0900
St Neots
0907
Sandy
0915
Biggleswade
0919
Arlesey
0924
Hitchin
0929
Stevenage
0934
Knebworth
0943
Welwyn North
0947
Welwyn Garden City
0924
Hatfield (Herts)
0928
Welham Green
0932
Brookmans Park
0934
Potters Bar
0937
Hadley Wood
0941
New Barnet
0943
Oakleigh Park
0945
New Southgate
0948
Watton-at-stone
0911
Hertford Stns
0917
Bayford
0921
Cuffley
0926
Crews Hill
0929
Gordon Hill
0932
Enfield Stns
0934
Grange Park
0936
Winchmore Hill
0938
Palmers Green
0941
Bowes Park
0943
Alexandra Palace
0931
Hornsey
0933
Harringay
0930
Finsbury Park
0933
Drayton Park
0935
Highbury & Islington
0930
Essex Road
0932

Not valid on any services which are scheduled to depart London Kings Cross, London St Pancras Intl, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras Intl between 1630 and 1901 (inc), regardless of where you join or leave the service.
See Note
Travel is permitted on the 1640 from London Kings Cross to Peterborough for Peterborough ONLY.
Evening Restrictions are lifted between December 24th, 2010 and January 3rd 2011 inclusive
 

stut

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Ah, but from the East Coast website (as well as the conductor's mouth - and to be fair to him, he was helpful and using discretion):

(See different conditions below for journeys to/from/via Stevenage and London)

[...]

5. Off-Peak Day Return and Off-Peak Travelcards
Outward and Return journeys must be made on the date shown on your ticket. Break of journey is allowed. Times you can travel:
NORTHBOUND: On any train from London King's Cross timed to depart at 09.53 or later, except 15.55-19.01 inclusive, Monday-Friday.
SOUTHBOUND: On any train to London King's Cross timed to depart at 0.953 or later, Monday-Friday.
 

Deerfold

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Ah, but from the East Coast website (as well as the conductor's mouth - and to be fair to him, he was helpful and using discretion):

That seems to be a very dodgy page with "General Terms and Validity To/From London" totally ignoring the fact that individual tickets have different restriction codes. I suspect they are the conditions for tickets priced by EC. Can anyone confirm who prices this ticket? I suspect FCC. Unless you're on an EC-only ticket you should be subect to the same conditions on any operator.
 

stut

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That seems to be a very dodgy page with "General Terms and Validity To/From London" totally ignoring the fact that individual tickets have different restriction codes. I suspect they are the conditions for tickets priced by EC. Can anyone confirm who prices this ticket? I suspect FCC. Unless you're on an EC-only ticket you should be subect to the same conditions on any operator.

Can't confirm who prices it, but just for clarity's sake, it was an 'Any Permitted' ticket.
 

north

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Can't confirm who prices it, but just for clarity's sake, it was an 'Any Permitted' ticket.

Priced by FCC. Also that website says that the first northbound service from Kings Cross to Stevenage allowed on an Off Peak ticket is the 09.53. I'm not sure where this comes from.

Tickets from London Terminals to Stevenage are B1 (Any train at or after 0930). The return portion of day tickets from Stevenage to London are L4 (as already mentioned) and are only restricted in the evening peak.
 

stut

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Could there be train-specific restrictions like the famous ones out of Paddington?
 

Mike395

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Doubt it, I just think the EC page is poorly written - I think the restrictions there are for journeys priced by EC themselves. London-Stevenage is priced by FCC :)
 

yorkie

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East Coast evening peak is 15:55-19:01
What do you mean by that? I think there is confusion here. The way it works is that a ticket has a restriction. Yes, some EC priced tickets have such a restriction, in this case the restriction you quote is for outward & return portions of Off Peak Day (outward/single/returns) tickets. This is quite different to the majority of EC ticket conditions!
FCC evening peak is 16:30-19:01
Again, there is confusion. This applies to some FCC priced tickets., in this case Off Peak Day Returns (return portion only).
I was on the 16:08 KGX-NNG today, and it must have been about half the passengers in there who had absolutely no idea that Off-Peak tickets weren't valid (was it just that there never used to be an EC service to Stevenage between 15:30 and 16:30 before?)
But you can't say that. Some Off Peak tickets are valid, some are not.
On top of that, there were no signs in evidence in King's Cross to advise you of this restriction, nothing on the departure boards, and nothing announced on board the train.
There are boards that describe in basic terms which Off Peak tickets are valid however they are wrong, misleading and do not apply to all tickets.
Is this worth a complaint to EC, do you reckon?

Ah, simplified fares, eh!
No, to be honest. It's a wider issue. You could write to your MP but the wording needs working on! To be honest, it's such a farce it's difficult to know where to start.

I wrote about this issue extensively in this post, using the 1714 service as an example (other services will vary)

Unless they are super-human, no guard/RPI could remember all this, so they have two choices: accept all tickets, or check each ticket in Avantix. How long would that take on a packed train, I wonder? Oh, there is a third (but incorrect) choice: guess and excess some people incorrectly. I bet that happens too...

.....On the 1714 FCC service, the following is / isn't valid:
Destination / Ticket type / Valid or not
Stevenage Off Peak Day OUT Valid
Stevenage Off Peak Day RTN Not Valid
Peterborough Off Peak Day OUT Valid (if routed FCC only)
Peterborough Off Peak Day OUT Not Valid (if routed Any Permitted)
Peterborough Off Peak Day RTN Not Valid (either route)

Peterborough Off Peak OUT Valid (if routed FCC only)
Peterborough Off Peak OUT Not Valid (if routed Any Permitted)
Peterborough Off Peak RTN Valid (either route)
....

If someone is on an Off Peak Day ticket on a train for which an Off Peak ticket is valid but an Off Peak Day is not, the ticket should be excessed tp the Off Peak.

Now I wonder if anyone has been excessed on the 19:00 departure, that would be interesting....:lol: In fact if someone were to be excessed correctly I think that the excess could appear in national media as it highlights how absurd the restrictions are and is strong evidence that ATOC have misleading statements on their website.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And just to add a twist...

Both FCC and East Coast booking engines will let you reserve a seat on the 16:08 when purchasing an off-peak return/travelcard.
Where did you get the idea it was not valid from - a return half of aaoff peak day return is valid on that train - restriction code L4
I suspect he was looking at an outward journey from King's Cross. That is valid.

Basically, our system is "simple" and allows us to "buy with confidence" and we all know "exactly where we stand", because ticket conditions are "the same across all train companies nationwide". You see, the name Off Peak "describes when you can use your ticket", in this case, as you can see this name is perfectly descriptive and I am able to determine all of the restrictions just by the name.

In the past it "wasn't easy" to find the best value ticket. The choice is now "simplified".

I am so glad ATOC have a simple system, otherwise if it was complicated, my head might explode.

simple.jpg

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Doubt it, I just think the EC page is poorly written - I think the restrictions there are for journeys priced by EC themselves. London-Stevenage is priced by FCC :)
EC do like 'simplifiers'; they even have their own simple version of the Routeing Guide. The problem with simplifiers on an extremely complex system, is that they can only be relied upon if you put a load of exceptions in, but then it would no longer be simple. In other words, they are trying to do the impossible. I think it is safer not to bother and simply say "Conditions vary depending on the ticket you hold, contact National Rail Enquiries or your local station for the terms specific to your ticket" or similar.
 

Greenback

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Ah, but from the East Coast website (as well as the conductor's mouth - and to be fair to him, he was helpful and using discretion):

I take this to mean that these are the restrictions on journeys between London and Stevenage and other destinations. These are not the same as the restrictions on journeys between Stevenage and London.

I can understand the confusion as it is not well written.
 

north

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I take this to mean that these are the restrictions on journeys between London and Stevenage and other destinations. These are not the same as the restrictions on journeys between Stevenage and London.

I can understand the confusion as it is not well written.


Yes - I think you may be right. Those times make much more sense when looking at restriction E9. This is the restriction from London to Peterborough Off Peak Day Return in either direction.
 
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