London Overground train stock

[mrjfox]

hi guys,

i have seen the lorol trains stock which runs on the old southeast london line and i have travel on various tube stock...central,jublie,nothern,victoria..ect.

i am guess they do roughly the same speeds and look roughly the same size.

just wondering what stock lorol trains are and if they are very different to lul tube stock?
if there are differences what exactly are they?

 

[Lrd]

Overground trains are either Class 378 which are electric, there are also diesel Class 172s on the Gospel Oak - Barking line.

The only resemblance to tube stock is the 'longitudinal' seating.

 

[mrjfox]

so do they drive differently?.
surely if you can operate a class 378 then you would be able to operate a tube train and vice versa or are the two extremely different?..
i know there is a big difference between tube and main line as the speeds (45 tube vs 125 ml) is vast but the 378 seem to travel as fast as tube trains so driving technique has to be similar like driving different cars unless i am way of the markin my observations :P

 

[Mojo]

In addition to the differences between the trains and the cab layout. LUL and Network Rail Infrastructure is totally different; everything from the rules and regulations to the signalling and traction current.

 

[swt_passenger]

The LO 378s are basically from the same family of trains as SE's 375s and 376s, SN's 377s, c2c's 357s and GA's newish 379s. Basically all the Electrostar variants.

So if you reckon the 378s are 'like tube trains' then half the mainline trains in the southeast must be as well...

 

[A-driver]

It depends what you mean by same to drive. In many ways a train is a train and if you can drive one then you can drive any in tearms of the feel of braking etc. Wouldn't take long to adapt. Wgeb I moved TOCs a few years back I did 90mins brake handling in each new bit of stock I learnt.

Speed isn't a huge issue anyway in my opinion. I drive each day a mix if trains from 313s doing 45mph between stations and 365s doing 100mph between stations. I see no difference in the 2, my braking points for 100mph station approaches are just earlier than for 45mph approaches. I know that if I put the brake in at B&Q on the down approach to Stevenage on the 75mph slow lines I will easily stop. Therefore if on the 100mph fast line I start killing off speed earlier so that I'm doing 75 at B&Q. An east coast driver doing 115+ will do the same. And if I'm doing 40 over Langley junction off the branch then I brake much later.

The main differences are in cab layout, on board equipment, fault and failures etc.

Not quite sure what you are asking in the post though?

 

[Wath Yard]

Not that this has anything to do with driving them, but in relation to the roughly the same size comment. This photo is a good illustration of the difference in size between LOROL and LU stock:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cambrianbasher/6148519324/

 

[Royston Vasey]

I read on here once that the 2009 stock shared (modified) traction equipment with the Electrostars, is this the case?

Certainly the LU 1996 stock shared three-phase AC induction motors with the Class 465. The 1996 stock and 465/2s were both built by Metro Cammell, specced at around the same time although built several years apart.

 

[starrymarkb]

Not that this has anything to do with driving them, but in relation to the roughly the same size comment. This photo is a good illustration of the difference in size between LOROL and LU stock:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cambrianbasher/6148519324/

Though 378s and D stock are the same size - http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephenpoole/6803451230/

Interestingly 6 coaches of D stock isn't much longer then 4 coaches of 378

 

[Class377/5]

I read on here once that the 2009 stock shared (modified) traction equipment with the Electrostars, is this the case?

Certainly the LU 1996 stock shared three-phase AC induction motors with the Class 465. The 1996 stock and 465/2s were both built by Metro Cammell, specced at around the same time although built several years apart.

Yes, the traction is based on the same kit as an Electrostar. Listen to one depart a station and you'll hear how slimar they sound.

 

[DXMachina]

I understand the 378s were regular sights in Kent prior to handover to active service - being run-in by another ToC whose drivers were trained on similar Electrostars

 

[Skoodle]

Trains that run over National Rail track use AWS and TPWS (also ATP) for protection and SPAD mitigation. London Underground use tripcocks which physically 'trips' the emergency brakes when passing a signal at danger. As the 378/2 units travel over LUL four track lines, they are fitted with tripcocks as well as AWS/TPWS.

 

[Waddon]

Although the stock is similar to the stuff being used on Southern, I must say they seem to be driven in totally different ways, especially on the bits of the East London Line that are shared... this is only my perception but Overground units really ease slowly into the platforms, coming to a very very slow stop, whilst the Southern drivers seem to come in and stop hard (not hard as in too hard, but decisively, if you know what I mean) It suggests very different styles of driving being taught to the respective crews, or am I mistaken?

 

[DXMachina]

Maybe it just suggests the crews are still used to 313s?

 

[Skoodle]

About 80% of drivers on the East London Line have never driven anything apart from 378s. We ease in to the platforms as it's more comfortable for the passengers especially during rush hour. Mostly though our operating instructions is that on the core route we use a 10/20 instead of 15/20 rule when approaching a signal at danger due to short signal sections and gradients.

 

[MCR247]

I read on here once that the 2009 stock shared (modified) traction equipment with the Electrostars, is this the case?

Just listen to an S Stock or an 09 stock and you can tell that they share similar equipment to electrostars

 

[jon0844]

Going much further back, a Piccadilly line train sounds much like a 313. Are they very similar (pretty similar era)?

 

[D365]

Picadilly has 1973 Stock, built by Metro-Cammell in... need I say? They are now the youngest fleet to be based on the old tube train design, whereas the 313s are now the oldest of the brand-new PEP design. I doubt that there would be much similarity, if any at all.

As a side note, this topic is turning into a rather interesting comparison/debate

 

[Dstock7080]

Trains that run over National Rail track use AWS and TPWS (also ATP) for protection and SPAD mitigation. London Underground use tripcocks which physically 'trips' the emergency brakes when passing a signal at danger. As the 378/2 units travel over LUL four track lines, they are fitted with tripcocks as well as AWS/TPWS.

378s only operate over National Rail owned infrastructure.
LU trains operate over NR infrastructure which has AWS and TPWS but this is not fitted to LU trains.

 

[jon0844]

Picadilly has 1973 Stock, built by Metro-Cammell in... need I say? They are now the youngest fleet to be based on the old tube train design, whereas the 313s are now the oldest of the brand-new PEP design. I doubt that there would be much similarity, if any at all.

Thanks. They sound the same (to me anyway)!

 

[mrjfox]

my original post was about trying to find if driving a lorol(378) would be similar to a tube stock as i used to be a lul driver and have applied to lorol as a train driver,lorol have told me they dont concider lul drivers as "proper" train drivers so i was trying to find out why,as a train is a train (exception main line stock) i am sure the 378's handling cant be that much different to tube stock...i've seen video's on youtube and things look familiar if not exactly the same.
traction control and braking control,good judgement and following all rules/regs..i cant see what else would be need

 

[MCR247]

Well I'd look at it this way, going from LUL to a 378 is the same thing as going from LUL to driving 390s.

As much as it may not seem like it, it is.

 

[150001]

Another difference is that on the Tube stock there is a dead man's handle. Whilst in motion the handle can't be let go otherwise it will return to a emergency brake position and jam on the brakes. On mainline stock there isn't a dead man's handle but there is a dead man's pedal. This pedal must be depressed whilst in motion and if there is no action from the driver (no change in traction output, or braking) then about every 40-60 seconds a alarm goes off. This requires the driver to lift his foot off the pedal for a second to silence the alarm. If the driver fails to lift his foot off after a few seconds then the emergency brakes are automatically applied. Tube stock tends to be faster at braking and accelerating and the sub surface line stock tends to be slightly wider (Class 378 is 2.80m wide whilst the D78 stock is 2.85m and the S stock is 2.92m wide!). Thats about all really.:

 

[notadriver]

Are you a driver 150001?

 

[150001]

Nope, only 15!

 

[jopsuk]

as an aside, is the only thing that would prevent a 378 going through the Circle line (and other parts of the Sub Surface network) be the power supply? If the power supply was altered to the arrangement on the shared LO/LU sections (as in the two pictures) that would get rid of that problem- and I'm sure I've heard tale of Mark 2 coaches (roughly the same dimensions as an Electrostar carriage) going round the circle? I realise there's no good reason to!

 

[150001]

I think with a change in power supply they'd still be able to run on the line, as long as they have tripcocks which they would as they run already over LUL. I've always though the 378s could've run on the metropolitan line with the higher speed limits north west of London.

 

[jopsuk]

You'd have to have six-car 378s to match the length of an S8. A five-car 378 would be a little shorter than an S7. The 378s would then have far, far less door-width than the S-stock

 

[Dstock7080]

Length of car and the overhang in centre of car could be a problem with some curved platforms;

378 car 20.4m
MkII car 19.6m
S Stock car 17.4m

 

[notadriver]

There's also the need to restrict acceleration to match the S Stock. I think 378s have a better power to weight ratio.