London Overground (378) incorrect next station

[jon0844]

I got on a LO train on Thursday which was two stations from Highbury & Islington. A fair few people boarded with me, and yet it was announcing Norwood Junction as the next stop.

What made me decide to film was the fact that nobody on the train seemed to care. Not a one. Okay, so even I knew it couldn't be right - but the fact that nobody flinched suggests that the incorrect next station announcements aren't that uncommon?

Am I right in thinking that, or were all the other people on the train too busy chatting or listening to their music? What about on the bits of the line where it actually does matter what train you're on/going?

Here's the video I took - which also managed to capture the Lycamobile train (not sure how many 378s there are with advertising liveries?)

http://youtu.be/lcgMygDBjCo

Finally, not sure if this is the right forum as it's LO not LU! - so feel free to move.

 

[Eagle]

Eh, automated announcers going wrong or getting lost is nothing out of the ordinary. Happens on all trains once in a while (LM 350s in particular whenever I'm on them, quite often get stuck on one of the stations and the usual procedure seems to be to just turn them off).

 

[jon0844]

I know it famously happened on 365s approaching Potters Bar (saying Finsbury Park) nearly all the time, as that relied on passing specific positions on the track. It was eventually fixed. That was certainly one that had most commuters ignoring it, and some others panicking.

The screens on a 317 can get it totally wrong by announcing the stations in reverse order, after you've left that station because whoever did the software didn't add any code to detect it passing the GPS positions backwards (because it's still set to the previous service).

I just wondered how the 378s work. Are they GPS based? Presumably they are, so I wonder how it could be so wrong?

 

[Skoodle]

There are only two units with Lyca Mobile branding on the North London Line.

There are a multitude of different journey codes that we use and sometimes a driver just gets it wrong. It appears that the driver has input the West Croydon to Highbury & Islington code starting from Dalston Junction, that's why it's showing as next station being Norwood Junction yet still saying it's going to Highbury. (That's also why no one was batting an eyelid, from Dalston people just listen out for the 'This is the London Overground service to Highbury & Islington' announcement).

Once the doors were released at Canonbury, the GPS would have picked up and realised where it actually is, and had you been a few stops shorter, you would have seen it fix itself. Unfortunately the next announcement you would have seen would be "This is the London Overground service to Highbury & Islington, the next station is Highbury & Islington".

Sometimes the system messes up, it happens, when it does we can input a journey code and amend the stops. Say for instance I'm driving a Crystal Palace to Highbury service and I get called by the signaller at Shadwell to be told to terminate at Dalston, I'll input a New Cross to Dalston code and cut out the stops already passed. This is maybe what happened, but incorrectly .

 

[jon0844]

It did indeed fix itself there. I didn't know if it was the system itself or the driver.

I also saw a scrolling messaging asking people to show consideration to other passengers, but there was no audio. Is that to simply stop annoying people with (non-safety) announcements or something added recently, where there's no voice recording?

I was travelling in the day, so I have no idea if anyone takes any notice - but I'd gladly have these on my trains where kids like to show how gangster they are by blasting out tunes on s**tty phone speakers!!

Oh, and thanks for the info.

 

[Eagle]

I just wondered how the 378s work. Are they GPS based? Presumably they are, so I wonder how it could be so wrong?

I assume they are GPS, most newly-installed systems seem to be. Could be that the transceiver packed up and the train had no idea where it was.

IIRC the 317s' and 365s' system is actually be based on the internal odometer (i.e. wheel rotations) rather than GPS.

 

[Skoodle]

That was something added within the last six months or so, not sure when exactly but no audio was recorded for it. I think it would be too much white noise if it were recorded to be honest. I think there's way too much for some stops anyway!

No one takes notice, especially the gangster kids playing the music right behind my cab! I think for Christmas I'll be really generous and hand out free headphones! A nice touch hey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Eagle, 378s are GPS based, the driver still needs to use their head and use the correct code though

 

[bicbasher]

I've been on a 378 during the Olympics when the unit pulled into New Cross Gate the announcement changed to "this train terminates here...." instead of the the Crystal Palace announcement. The driver quickly spoke on the PA to clarify the situation!

 

[jon0844]

I am fairly sure the 317s are GPS based. It's why they say things in reverse (like now approaching King's Cross when leaving King's Cross, now approaching FPK after passing etc). All because the train passes the coordinates that would trigger them correctly.

Simple software could detect the error and disable the system and even request the correct route code from the driver. Mind you, if the driver didn't set it before then they're unlikely to when running. Some speak over the PA to blame a computer error and tell you to ignore things but it isn't really a computer fault.

 

[jopsuk]

IIRC the 317s' and 365s' system is actually be based on the internal odometer (i.e. wheel rotations) rather than GPS.

Which gets amusing when the driver mucks up setting the system on a joining service at Cambridge, meaning that on the non-stop run to Kings Cross you start getting the announcements for stations from Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The screens on a 317 can get it totally wrong by announcing the stations in reverse order, after you've left that station because whoever did the software didn't add any code to detect it passing the GPS positions backwards (because it's still set to the previous service).

I've noticed this happening on SWT 455s out of Waterloo a few times.

 

[fgwrich]

I've noticed this happening on SWT 455s out of Waterloo a few times.

Ive noticed that before on the 00:05 / 01:05 services before, leaving London Waterloo with The Next Station is London Waterloo where this train will terminate etc etc... all the way to Clapham Junc.

 

[wintonian]

During the Olympics on my 4 or so trips down to/ back from Weymouth the CIS would announce Holten Heath as the next stop and the train would just speed through with no correction from the Guard.

 

[causton]

During the Olympics on my 4 or so trips down to/ back from Weymouth the CIS would announce Holten Heath as the next stop and the train would just speed through with no correction from the Guard.

When I went on my Great Escape the 350 started randomly announcing "Now approaching Leighton Buzzard" and we were travelling at probably the full 100mph so I was a bit worried - especially as it was the first time this station had been mentioned! Same with Wolverton as well... it just flashed up then returned to the xx:xx London Midland screen as if nothing had happened...

 

[wintonian]

When I went on my Great Escape the 350 started randomly announcing "Now approaching Leighton Buzzard" and we were travelling at probably the full 100mph so I was a bit worried - especially as it was the first time this station had been mentioned! Same with Wolverton as well... it just flashed up then returned to the xx:xx London Midland screen as if nothing had happened...

I seem to remember getting rather concerned once whilst on a stopper to Portsmouth that was announcing "This train is for Portsmouth Harbour... The next stop is Portsmouth & Southsea" - As usual we were pulling into Platform 3!

 

[Skoodle]

I've been on a 378 during the Olympics when the unit pulled into New Cross Gate the announcement changed to "this train terminates here...." instead of the the Crystal Palace announcement. The driver quickly spoke on the PA to clarify the situation!

That would have been a slip of the finger on to the wrong manual announcement! "This is our final stop, all change please". Actually I'll admit I did the same two days ago. On leaving Highbury and Islington, I went to press "Please stand clear of the doors, this train is ready to leave", however I hadn't scrolled the page down and and accidentally pressed "Sorry, this train is not in service". That's the only manual prerecorded announcement that changes the external displays so there were a couple of bemused looks pulling in to Canonbury until I could reset it.

 

[Bushy]

The GPS does sometimes lose its signal. This seemed to happen quite frequently on SET 375s when they were first introduced, particularly at the London termini. This may have been because the GPS used the receivers on the lead unit which would be covered by the overstation building at Charing Cross and Cannon Street.

The other area where there were frequent problems was on the main Kent Coast line where it cuts through the North Downs; the deep cuttings and tunnels interfered with the signal. The main impact was that the doors would not open at stations but we got accustomed to this occurring after a misplaced announcement.

There are fewer problems now. They may have improved the software or use the signal from receivers on more than one unit. We did have a train that arrived at Charing Cross recently for which they gave up trying to get the doors open with the controls and used the emergency releases. I think this was a system fault and not just a GPS problem.

Regards

Bushy

 

[Lewisham2221]

Eh, automated announcers going wrong or getting lost is nothing out of the ordinary. Happens on all trains once in a while (LM 350s in particular whenever I'm on them, quite often get stuck on one of the stations and the usual procedure seems to be to just turn them off).

Yep, LM 350's seem pretty bad for it. On my most recent trip to London on a Trent Valley stopper the PIS/announcer was working fine until we coupled to the ex-BHM unit at Northampton, where it promptly decided that we'd returned to Crewe and the next station was Alsager.

 

[jopsuk]

for the East London Line, are there "fake satellites" through the tunnels?

 

[Skoodle]

I don't think do but only canada water, shoreditch and Dalston are totally enclosed, all the others are open and able to get a signal.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As re-broadcasting ( repeating ) a GPS signal is illegal, how does a "fake satellite" work?

 

[O L Leigh]

I am fairly sure the 317s are GPS based. It's why they say things in reverse (like now approaching King's Cross when leaving King's Cross, now approaching FPK after passing etc). All because the train passes the coordinates that would trigger them correctly.

Simple software could detect the error and disable the system and even request the correct route code from the driver. Mind you, if the driver didn't set it before then they're unlikely to when running. Some speak over the PA to blame a computer error and tell you to ignore things but it isn't really a computer fault.

Ha ha!! You credit the system with far too much complexity.

When you change ends and put the key in the desk the PIS is supposed to recognise that cab as the lead cab and cancel down all previous routes. However, it may be that the PIS in that cab (or unit for units in multiple) is faulty or totally dead, in which case it may not recognise it as the lead cab. When this happens you have a choice. Either a) ignore it, or b) run back to another cab in the train where the PIS is functioning correctly and put in the route code (always assuming you have the time to do so).

Then you get the units in multiple that fail to sequence correctly and identify that they are in multiple. When that happens you get BOTH unit making announcements AT THE SAME TIME, where one thinks it's going one way and the other one thinks it's going the opposite way. The problem is that a PIS route code remains active in a non-live unit for one hour, meaning that it will announce the routes backwards as it comes to the relevant GPS trigger points.

So it is neither laziness on the part of the driver (a lazy driver wouldn't bother to set the thing up in the first place) nor a lack of programming on the part of the developer. For various reasons the system develops faults that make it impossible to use effectively which is why you experience the things you've reported.

O L Leigh

 

[bicbasher]

I don't think do but only canada water, shoreditch and Dalston are totally enclosed, all the others are open and able to get a signal.

Dalston yes, Shoreditch and Canada Water I've been able to use a mobile phone to receive signals from outside.

Canada Water's roof allows natural light and signals to be received on the platforms, including the Jubilee platforms beneath the Overground.

 

[O L Leigh]

Phone signals are not the same as GPS signals. I can get a phone signal at Stansted Airport, but a Cl379 loses GPS almost as soon as it's under the roof. Please, don't get the two mixed up.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Here's a good set up this morning;

http://youtu.be/xWzUyTBrt4g?hd=1

I've also noticed that increasingly more and more 365s are not showing anything on the exterior screens or inside. Are they not being used by all drivers, or are they just failing? They must be getting on a bit now.

 

[D365]

365 PIS screens are dying - the fleet is due for mid-life refurbishment under GN starting next year. Keep your fingers crossed for air-con, rebuilt windows and a new PIS, a quality interior with new seat covers, floor and lighting... And no new traction!

 

[Bushy]

for the East London Line, are there "fake satellites" through the tunnels?

Some systems also log distance travelled, by measurement of wheel rotations - similar to a road vehicle odometer. London Underground use GPS on open sections distance measurement on covered lines.

Regards

Bushy

 

[jon0844]

365 PIS screens are dying - the fleet is due for mid-life refurbishment under GN starting next year. Keep your fingers crossed for air-con, rebuilt windows and a new PIS, a quality interior with new seat covers, floor and lighting... And no new traction!

Is air conditioning a likely addition? Would be fantastic if it is, along with an upgraded PIS.

Let's hope they don't get it all wrong and skip the air con, change the seats and add new traction!

(Having read the report above, I do think the doors should be replaced with razor blades at the edges!)

 

[D365]

Is air conditioning a likely addition? Would be fantastic if it is, along with an upgraded PIS.

Let's hope they don't get it all wrong and skip the air con, change the seats and add new traction!

(Having read the report above, I do think the doors should be replaced with razor blades at the edges!)

The 'ka-plunking' windows are fun - had one slamming all the way to London! - as are the ball vents, but I think it's time for those to sucuumb to a proper ventilation system, and I'm sure the regulars do too. An on-board computer system with wi-fi, 'infotainment' screens etc. would be welcome too! A more reliable PIS is what's needed really, along with a better ventilation system, sturdier seat covers and flooring - you might have spotted duck tape in some places.

The seats are good imo. Don't know if you mean changing them to be a good or bad thing (bad?). The refurbishment does come just before the 317722 trial, mind. Hitachi traction as featured on the BREL/ABB 465s has been suggested, but we'd miss the sound.

Razor blades? Hmm...

 

[LexyBoy]

Do 365s have the same system as was in FGW 165/166s? Because the replacements in the FGW fleet are terrible, frequently showing the wrong stopping pattern or direction. Gave me a shock the other day when I hopped on a train just before the doors closed and saw, as the engines revved, the PIS showing the train as going in the opposite direction to the one I was wanting.