London Northwestern removing First Class from May?

[SouthEastBuses]

So if I understand it correctly, this means that from May, I will be able to sit in the first class compartment of a class 350 using a standard class ticket, given that first class will be permanently declassified?

Also, it seems that LNWR are effectively copying Southeastern, given I believe (happy to be corrected if wrong) that SE were the first to remove first class. Tbh, a completely good idea, why pay an outrageous amount of money for a product that is no different to standard class at all*? I hope my local toc, Southern, also does the same thing soon! First class on their class 377s have exactly the same seats as in standard class!

*on the London & South East commuter routes. First class on long distance intercity services, if you can find a good advance deal like I have once, is worth the extra money and is a proper first class experience

 

[LiftFan]

why pay an outrageous amount of money for a product that is no different to standard class at all*?

*on the London & South East commuter routes. First class on long distance intercity services, if you can find a good advance deal like I have once, is worth the extra money and is a proper first class experience

First class certainly isn't worth it on GWR at all! Even Hull Trains provides sandwiches...

 

[DJH1971]

Are they going to remove the partitions in the 350's?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

First class certainly isn't worth it on GWR at all! Even Hull Trains provides sandwiches...

I enjoyed the experience, but certainly wouldn't say it was the best! Shortly I will be travelling on first class on LNER's Intercity 225s (which I've heard is very good), but this is a discussion for another thread.

 

[james_the_xv]

Are they going to remove the partitions in the 350's?

On LNWRs website it says they don't indend to make any major alterations to the internal layout. I'd assume that means partitions and seat layout stays the same, curtains might go though and the reclining seats may be disabled/left to go broken and never fixed.

 

[swt_passenger]

On LNWRs website it says they don't indend to make any major alterations to the internal layout. I'd assume that means partitions and seat layout stays the same, curtains might go though and the reclining seats may be disabled/left to go broken and never fixed.

IIRC when some of the SWR 450s had first class removed for a few years, ie the 450/5 variants, they kept the partitions in place but removed the sliding doors, I think to make the change more obvious.

(Of course they’ve since been modified again to move the first class to the ends behind the cabs, and that included full changes to the partitions in all 3 affected carriages.)

 

[Kite159]

The doors into the First Class areas on the 350s might be locked open after May (assuming such a thing is possible) but I can't see the DfT allowing anything expensive like removing the doors.

At least if you board at London (or Crewe/Birmingham) and are unlucky to land a pair of 350/2s, if you are quick you can get a seat in a slightly nicer area with plug sockets & tables.

 

[Starmill]

I believe (happy to be corrected if wrong) that SE were the first to remove first class.

Not really. Chiltern Railways removed it perhaps 25 years ago? First Class has also been removed from lots of other routes recently, including Stansted Express, East Anglia regional services, services via Bracknell, Furness and Lakes lines, GWML stopping services, London to Corby, you name it, it's happened all over. Going back even further c2c withdrew it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==

Are you seriously suggesting that people from Northampton should extend their journey to change at Milton Keynes just to use first class?

Sometimes I feel like certain people on this forum live in a parallel universe. An ordinary person wouldn't even consider that in a million years.

To be fair there used to be a small time saving from doing this because one of the Northampton services was so slow. But it was a very small time saving, about 5 minutes up and 10 minutes down. Today one wonders if anyone still bothers, unless they've specifically split because there was some price advantage.

 

[Andrew1395]

Once London First Class commuters dried up after the pandemic, the sales now mean the loss of a bit of the First class allocations on flows like Euston -Milton Keynes won’t be as painful to the bottom line as it would have been before March 2020.

Without the justification to check customer compliance another argument why guards are not required.

As the London regional railway out of Euston evolves into a model more akin to the Metropolitan Line than the Intercity AWC offer, with PAYG ticketing, removing first class (with virtually no customer negative impact), no doubt DOO in the planning. Maybe a more common approach to rolling stock and timetables in the future.

It looks like we are setting down some key common elements for recasting services in the London travel area.

 

[Jimini]

...the sales now mean the loss of a bit of the First class allocations on flows like Euston -Milton Keynes won’t be as painful to the bottom line as it would have been before March 2020.

They all sit in standard premium on Avanti services these days and chance it! On many an occasion I've never seen people move so quickly when the TM comes round

 

[Bertie the bus]

So if I understand it correctly, this means that from May, I will be able to sit in the first class compartment of a class 350 using a standard class ticket, given that first class will be permanently declassified?

Also, it seems that LNWR are effectively copying Southeastern, given I believe (happy to be corrected if wrong) that SE were the first to remove first class. Tbh, a completely good idea, why pay an outrageous amount of money for a product that is no different to standard class at all*? I hope my local toc, Southern, also does the same thing soon! First class on their class 377s have exactly the same seats as in standard class!

*on the London & South East commuter routes. First class on long distance intercity services, if you can find a good advance deal like I have once, is worth the extra money and is a proper first class experience

I don't think many purchased 1st Class tickets on what are effectively commuter routes for a proper 1st Class experience. They will have purchased 1st Class season tickets as it would have guaranteed them a seat. As commuter numbers are nowhere near where they were pre-Covid they are more likely to get a seat in Standard so why pay more for 1st Class? Southeastern commuters obviously couldn't think of a reason to continue paying more as they only had 28 1st Class season ticket holders left when they abolished it. Presumably LNWR have similar numbers.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I assume you don't travel on inner suburban or Windsor lines services then!

These are mostly crewed by Metro Guards who don't check tickets (Commercial Guards who are a separate grade do and get paid more for it). They should still be walking through the trains but the caveat is they have to be in specific locations for dispatch where platforms have a curvature and some busy trains they may not be able to walk through anyway. Not making excuses for the ones you don't see at all on the end to end journey though, as a Trainee Metro Guard it is drummed into us to be visible and walk the trains as much as possible!

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting question is whether interavailable first class fares will still exist for MKC-EUS after abolition, or it will just be left as the Avanti dedicated fare? All the First Class returns are close to twice the single, as is the Standard Anytime, so little is lost by doing this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

LNR were still going through the charade today of threatening retribution for anyone daring to sit in First with a Standard ticket.
I guess they have 4 weeks to sort the announcements/signs out.

 

[jrh2254]

Now the run from the concourse is going to be even more intense !!

 

[Prestige15]

I believe one of the reason why fewer people are using 1st class these days because its expensive and don't really get whats your money's worth. Gatwick Express 1st class is a perfect example.

If i had my way I would class them as 'Standard Plus' With seats with a little more leg room and bigger and wireless charging tables with price slightly more than standard. See how that would go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On LNR they are Standard minus. The best accommodation on the 350s (/2s excepted) is the cab end area with extra legroom which is (was) actually 1st on the 360s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

First class certainly isn't worth it on GWR at all! Even Hull Trains provides sandwiches...

Inclusive catering in First Class is very much the exception than the rule. On DB for example you used to pay a small premium compared to going to the buffet to pay for it to be served at your first class seat (I believe it is now the same at seat or in the buffet).

 

[Puffing Devil]

I use 1st from Crewe to Euston as it guaranteed a little more space on the crowded 8:13 departure for a worthwhile when expensing, increase in fare. Generally, the cabin remained quiet and working away on my laptop for the whole trip was easy. Current pricing is £50 vs £90 for the off-peak return, much less than the eye-watering demands on Avanti: £100 more for space and a slightly shorter journey time.

I guess I'll get to Crewe earlier to ensure I get a space in the declassified area, though the loading is normally light until Stafford and beyond, where the train really fills. For the return, it's Open Train Times and the track maps to stay completely ahead of the crowds.

 

[Wolfie]

As someone who travels on the Euston-Birmingham route regularly, it certainly seems to be full of "no goods" outside of peak hours, the lack of ticket checks over the last 7 or so years on WMT (and LM beforehand) have effectively turned first class into standard class for some people.

At times that, other than to genuine first class ticket holders obviously, is positively beneficial. If all the AHs go in there then you can avoid them by sitting in Standard!!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2023 ==

The railway staff who seem to occupy most WMT Class 350 First Class into New St on weekday mornings won't be happy.

Hopefully they aren't part of @AJDesiro's "no goods".... lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess I'll get to Crewe earlier to ensure I get a space in the declassified area

I'd recommend, assuming it's not a /2, the cab end table. It has far more space than 1st, and indeed was 1st on 360s.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'd recommend, assuming it's not a /2, the cab end table. It has far more space than 1st, and indeed was 1st on 360s.

And the benefit of "too far to walk up the platform" for many people

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the benefit of "too far to walk up the platform" for many people

Indeed, I quite like that table and the extra-legroom airline seats next to it, and they are very easy to get.

The rear one is also easy to get if the train is in one of the long platforms at Euston as hardly anyone thinks to go down the ramp and back on themselves.

(Not all of you at once, mind, it's mine )

 

[185143]

And the benefit of "too far to walk up the platform" for many people

Which of course on arrival at Crewe is the best place to be!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The doors into the First Class areas on the 350s might be locked open after May (assuming such a thing is possible) but I can't see the DfT allowing anything expensive like removing the doors.

At least if you board at London (or Crewe/Birmingham) and are unlucky to land a pair of 350/2s, if you are quick you can get a seat in a slightly nicer area with plug sockets & tables.

Doors will be isolated in the open position, that is all.

 

[Class83]

Hopefully they can stop putting 350/2s on the Birmingham-Liverpool route, 3+2 seating is pretty poor for a ~100 minute intercity journey. Though at least this gives a chance of getting a regular 2+2 standard seat if you're quick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully they can stop putting 350/2s on the Birmingham-Liverpool route, 3+2 seating is pretty poor for a ~100 minute intercity journey. Though at least this gives a chance of getting a regular 2+2 standard seat if you're quick.

350/2s are being withdrawn, to be replaced by 730s in due course. This will mean all units have 2+2 seating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==

When does the May timetable start? I intend to sit in 1st in a 319 (only decent 1st on the south WCML) when I next go to London but just to know if I have to pay the 1st fare for it or not

Edit: answered myself, 21st, so no 1st fare necessary

 

[Trainfan2019]

Here's a 350/2 on the last weekday in service before first class goes. The doors are locked open but still says first class. The first class seat headcovers haven't been around all week. Still says first class on the exterior windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I *suspect* they've stopped enforcing it already, in so much as they ever bother enforcing it anyway.

 

[Nippy]

The senior conductor was enforcing it on the 05:53 from Tring yesterday. He announced it and a lot of people got up and left the area.