London Midland

[xtradj]

If London Midland extend the Euston - Crewe to Liverpool

Would they reduce the Birmingham - Lime St to hourly rather than half hourly?

or would they keep the two an hour and the timetable be for example ::

00 LM Bham, 15 LM Euston, 30 LM Bham, 45 VT Euston ?

I therefore ask, if LM did extend to Euston, would this jeopardise a half hourly VT service from Liverpool to Euston?

I find it hard to belive many would use the LM Liverpool - Euston travelling the full way as i guess the time distance would be high! unless prices were alot less than VT?

Interesting

 

[willas00]

If London Midland extend the Euston - Crewe to Liverpool

Would they reduce the Birmingham - Lime St to hourly rather than half hourly?

or would they keep the two an hour and the timetable be for example ::

00 LM Bham, 15 LM Euston, 30 LM Bham, 45 VT Euston ?

I therefore ask, if LM did extend to Euston, would this jeopardise a half hourly VT service from Liverpool to Euston?

I find it hard to belive many would use the LM Liverpool - Euston travelling the full way as i guess the time distance would be high! unless prices were alot less than VT?

Interesting

I can tell I'm behind on rail news, Didn't know they where planning or thinking about it lol.

It would be a bit stupid to reduce to service from BHM unless you then had to change which would be annoying.

I think most would continue on VT though for faster times if there was two services like

 

[xtradj]

I do agree Liverpool needs an Extra London service, but id guess LM's proposal would be used mainly for intermediate journeys, however the Link between Liverpool, Stoke and the Trent Valley could be well used.

Im not sure what the latest with VT is on a half hourly service?

I know they hope to extend the Glasgow service to half hourly, but i would assume it would be hourly to Glasgow, and half hourly to Preston?

 

[MCR247]

1tph Euston - Liverpool
1tph BHM - Liverpool
1tph BHM - Preston

HTH

 

[northwichcat]

The Liverpool-London service will not go via Stone and will call at stations between Runcorn and Crewe. The Preston-Birmingham service will go via Stone and will not call at Acton Bridge or Winsford, but will add a much needed extra service between Crewe, Warrington, Wigan and Preston which calls at all 4 stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Im not sure what the latest with VT is on a half hourly service?

The proposed specification for the next WC franchise is one Liverpool-London per hour.

I know they hope to extend the Glasgow service to half hourly, but i would assume it would be hourly to Glasgow, and half hourly to Preston?

Glasgow-London will be an hourly clockface timetable will less stops than currently. There will also be an hourly London-Lancashire service, the destination of which will alternate between Lancaster and Blackpool.

 

[cle]

The Liverpool-London service will not go via Stone and will call at stations between Runcorn and Crewe. The Preston-Birmingham service will go via Stone and will not call at Acton Bridge or Winsford, but will add a much needed extra service between Crewe, Warrington, Wigan and Preston which calls at all 4 stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The proposed specification for the next WC franchise is one Liverpool-London per hour.



Glasgow-London will be an hourly clockface timetable will less stops than currently. There will also be an hourly London-Lancashire service, the destination of which will alternate between Lancaster and Blackpool.

This is what I understood too. London - Glasgow trains will have their first stop at Preston.

Warrington/Wigan would be served by the Lancashire terminators, and I imagine a second train per hour via connections at Crewe - either from the Wilmslow/Manchester train from London or the Chester - and then onto the LM B'ham Preston or VT Birmingham - Scotland trains which would be fast.

I think this is a good solution, connecting into non-stop trains from Crewe to London, or 1tph direct (unsure of stopping pattern). Glasgow trains get faster too.

 

[northwichcat]

Glasgow trains get faster too.

Downside of this is more passengers loaded on to Birmingham to Scotland and Manchester Airport to Scotland services. Birmingham-Scotland will see a mix of 390s and 221s opposed to all 221s, so no big problem there. However, Manchester to Scotland will see 4 car EMUs replacing 3 and 6 car DMUs which are already overcrowded, so there will be huge overcrowding problems unless revisions are made.

 

[cle]

Ahh, but won't these potentially (the Manc ones) be 8 car, with 4 cars joining from Liverpool at Preston?

 

[Crossover]

I find it hard to belive many would use the LM Liverpool - Euston travelling the full way as i guess the time distance would be high! unless prices were alot less than VT?

Interesting

It is possible - where I am at uni in Stafford, we get the hourly LIV-EUS VT train which doesn't stop between STA and EUS, so a very quick journey.
We also get the hourly CRE-EUS LM stopper which takes a fair bit longer calling all stations (apart from Polesworth, Wolverton and Long Buckby) as far as Milton Keynes so takes a lot longer.
Can't remember the exact fares but one of my friends usually gets the LM as it costs something like half the price of the VT for an open return - but maybe its just a student thing

 

[northwichcat]

Ahh, but won't these potentially (the Manc ones) be 8 car, with 4 cars joining from Liverpool at Preston?

The timeline is

* 2012 stops removed from Glasgow-London services
* 2015 Manchester to Scotland service switched to 4 car EMU operation and services diverted via Wigan to use the newly electrfied line and to stop Salford and Bolton commuters using that service to get in and out of Manchester.
* 2018 Possible extra EMU order for additional Liverpool-Preston services, which may continue to Scotland as a portion working.

That makes it a problem for at least 6 years.

 

[DarloRich]

The LM trains are somewhat cheaper than the VT services, but they take longer.

 

[tbtc]

It would be a bit stupid to reduce to service from BHM unless you then had to change which would be annoying

I guess the "logic" is that LM will get most of the Birmingham - Liverpool ORCATs money regardless, so this way they get a slice of the "Birmingham/Crewe - Preston" cake too...

The Preston Wigan - Warrington - Crewe route needs additional capacity, but it might end up going from:

• 1x hourly 221 (Birmingham - Scotland)

...to...

• 1x hourly 350 (Birmingham - Preston)
• 1x hourly 390 (London - Blackpool/Lancaster)
• 1x hourly 221/390 (Birmingham - Scotland)

...which would be a massive increase in capacity, but yet again Liverpool gets a poorer service.

 

[northwichcat]

I guess the "logic" is that LM will get most of the Birmingham - Liverpool ORCATs money regardless, so this way they get a slice of the "Birmingham/Crewe - Preston" cake too...

The Preston Wigan - Warrington - Crewe route needs additional capacity, but it might end up going from:

• 1x hourly 221 (Birmingham - Scotland)

...to...

• 1x hourly 350 (Birmingham - Preston)
• 1x hourly 390 (London - Blackpool/Lancaster)
• 1x hourly 221/390 (Birmingham - Scotland)

...which would be a massive increase in capacity, but yet again Liverpool gets a poorer service.

The London-Blackpool/Lancaster services will be 221 operated and will not call at Crewe. This will mean passengers travelling between Crewe and Warrington/Wigan/Preston will have one 350 and one 221/390 an hour, when pre-Dec 08 it had one 22x and one 390 an hour. Virgin and DfT were very wrong to change that to just one 221 an hour and probably only did so because they wrongly assumed everyone travelling on a London bound train goes to London.

If you look at other posts on here people from Merseyside are in favour of the LM changes. Not that many people travel from Liverpool-Birmingham and Liverpool and Liverpool South Parkway will gain links to new destinations in the Midlands.

 

[tbtc]

Not that many people travel from Liverpool-Birmingham

It used to be a bi-hourly Cross Country service and an hourly Central Citylink service.

When XC pulled out, the Central service was beefed up to half hourly (but chopped from the Stansted section).

Now it looks to be going down to hourly. Shame.

 

[northwichcat]

It used to be a bi-hourly Cross Country service and an hourly Central Citylink service.

When XC pulled out, the Central service was beefed up to half hourly (but chopped from the Stansted section).

Now it looks to be going down to hourly. Shame.

Some Liverpool XC services went via Shrewsbury and Hereford not Birmingham.

I've been on a Liverpool-Birmingham all stops off-peak service after the previous two were cancelled due to overhead electric problems and one 350 easily fitted everyone on. Compare that to TPE or Liverpool-Norwich.

The change is actually good for Liverpool as it retains direct services to Birmingham and will have other options available by changing at Crewe or Stafford, as well as gaining a new service to new destinations. It's a much better change than the TPE change which resulted in Liverpool getting Scraborough trains instead of Sunderland via Newcastle trains.

The only real losers are people using Winsford station which will have no Birmingham service.

 

[Pumbaa]

The London-Blackpool/Lancaster services will be 221 operated and will not call at Crewe. This will mean passengers travelling between Crewe and Warrington/Wigan/Preston will have one 350 and one 221/390 an hour, when pre-Dec 08 it had one 22x and one 390 an hour. Virgin and DfT were very wrong to change that to just one 221 an hour and probably only did so because they wrongly assumed everyone travelling on a London bound train goes to London.

The London-Blackpool/Lancaster WILL call at Crewe; refer to the ORR documents. And they're down for a mixture of both 390/221.

Also the extended LM Euston - Crewe to Liverpool will still go via Stone and Stoke; LM cannot justify it otherwise. The opening up of the direct Potteries to Merseyside market is a big part of their business case. The end result is thus;

1tph Liverpool - London via Stoke
1tph Liverpool - Brum
1tph Preston - Brum.

 

[northwichcat]

The London-Blackpool/Lancaster WILL call at Crewe; refer to the ORR documents. And they're down for a mixture of both 390/221.

Not quite either the Blackpool or Lancaster service will call at Crewe.

This additional service would call at stations on a two hourly pattern as detailed below:
1) London Euston, Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston.
2) London Euston, Milton Keynes Central, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western and Preston.

If it's the Blackpool service, which I suspect it will be as they'll be more point in giving Crewe a direct Blackpool link than Nuneaton, it'll be a 221 every 2 hours.

Also the extended LM Euston - Crewe to Liverpool will still go via Stone and Stoke; LM cannot justify it otherwise. The opening up of the direct Potteries to Merseyside market is a big part of their business case. The end result is thus;

London Midland applied for the Liverpool-Crewe-London service to go via Stone. The West Coast draft RUS recommend option is as follows:

Gap being addressed:
Faster journey times between London/North West and Nuneaton/Lichfield/Tamworth.

Concept:
Stage 1 diverts the existing London Euston to Crewe interurban service from Stafford direct to Crewe via the WCML, not calling at Stone, Stoke-on-Trent, Kidsgrove and Alsager.
Stage 2,extends the service to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn to optimise fleet utilisation. This is illustrated in Figure 5.1.

 

[A0]

Downside of this is more passengers loaded on to Birmingham to Scotland and Manchester Airport to Scotland services. Birmingham-Scotland will see a mix of 390s and 221s opposed to all 221s, so no big problem there. However, Manchester to Scotland will see 4 car EMUs replacing 3 and 6 car DMUs which are already overcrowded, so there will be huge overcrowding problems unless revisions are made.

Not sure why you think that the B'ham and Manc - Scotland services are going to be more crowded?

For Manc - Scotland to be EMU run, you need the NW electrification to be completed and for stock to have become available - not sure that's going to happen in the same time frame as LM extending to Preston ?

Surely the question on the Manc - Scotland services is whether they are 'overcrowded' for the whole duration of the journey or after certain points ? If there's a regular stopping service between Crewe & Preston from LM this may improve matters as far as Preston - and if there are some 390s in use as opposed to all 221s at present, then surely there will be greater capacity from Preston - Scotland?

 

[MCR247]

London midland want to extend to Preston soon. Electrification won't happen for a while!

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure why you think that the B'ham and Manc - Scotland services are going to be more crowded?

For Manc - Scotland to be EMU run, you need the NW electrification to be completed and for stock to have become available - not sure that's going to happen in the same time frame as LM extending to Preston ?

There will be less Cumbria stops on Glasgow-London services, meaning more passengers will rely on other services, which don't have the spare capacity at present. Scotland-Birmingham will get some lengthened services but Scotland-Manchester won't.

I imagine TPE services won't call at Wigan after being diverted as Philip Hammond said the diversion will continue after Bolton electrification so that Bolton-Manchester commuters don't use.

 

[cle]

To be honest, Manchester - Scotland trains should be intercity and having the first stop at Preston isn't so bad. Hopefully hourly Windemere/Barrow trains, as well as Blackpool ones, will cover the whole Chorley/Bolton shortfall.

 

[tbtc]

Some Liverpool XC services went via Shrewsbury and Hereford not Birmingham

The Shrewsbury/ Hereford services were "Provincial" ones (now replaced by ATW services to Holyhead). I was talking about the initial "Operation Princess" service, which had the hourly service from the Reading route alternating between Liverpool and Manchester (VT2 and VT3?), so there was a bi-hourly Voyager to Liverpool, later replaced by additional London Midland services.

Liverpool really has lost most long distance routes (North Wales, South Wales, South West England, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Leicester, Newcastle...) - possibly the biggest "loser" since privatisation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be honest, Manchester - Scotland trains should be intercity and having the first stop at Preston isn't so bad. Hopefully hourly Windemere/Barrow trains, as well as Blackpool ones, will cover the whole Chorley/Bolton shortfall.

Trouble is, Windermere/Barrow won't be wired, so will need DMUs if they have through trains to Manchester, which means the full benefit of electrification won't be "realised"

 

[cle]

Windemere might be, apparently! But yes I agree, one tph would be diesel on this route. Not 100%.

Maybe 1tp2h if Barrow alternated with wired Windermere hourly - and with electric Blackpool and some local services, the majority would still be.