London Midland Woes

[sonic2009]

Well well well, the driver/guard situation seem to be striking again.

London Midland have tonight cancelled the 1801 & 1901 Birmingham - Liverpool services, due to no train crew.

I'm due to connect in the 1801 at Crewe for Winsford, seeing as the next one is cancelled too, seems like LM will need to sort something.

I don't normally rant about them, but what is going on within London Midland? the 1801 was cancelled for the exact same reason 3 weeks ago.

Is it just a general shortage of drivers? or a bigger problem?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find that the Liverpool services are very poor in their reliability, from my observation. The service is often reduced down to hourly for lots of different reasons.

Personally I'm minded to say they could do with reducing to 8-car hourly if they can't run 4-car half-hourly properly.

Neil

 

[All Line Rover]

Over the previous 12 weeks, London Midland Birmingham to Liverpool services have arrived within 5 minutes of their scheduled arrival time 78% of the time. This compares to 68% for CrossCountry's Birmingham to Manchester services.

I have not looked at cancellation statistics, but the above figures suggest that London Midland's reliability on the Birmingham to Liverpool route is no worse than the reliability of other TOCs on comparable routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Over the previous 12 weeks, London Midland Birmingham to Liverpool services have arrived within 5 minutes of their scheduled arrival time 78% of the time. This compares to 68% for CrossCountry's Birmingham to Manchester services.

That sounds like a punctuality statistic, not a reliability statistic. The issue with Brum-Liverpool is a large number of cancellations, not delays.

Neil

 

[All Line Rover]

Since you ask:

BHM to LIV: 96.6% reliability, over 29 daily services​

BHM to MAN: 97.2% reliability, over 34 daily services​

London Midland is slightly poorer than CrossCountry, but there is little in it. Over 166 journeys, you are likely to experience 6 cancellations with London Midland and 5 with CrossCountry.

 

[45107]

That sounds like a punctuality statistic, not a reliability statistic. The issue with Brum-Liverpool is a large number of cancellations, not delays.

Neil

Punctuality stats (in the form of PPM) take into account reliability.

ie 78% is based on the services that were planned to operate and not the number that operated.

 

[IrishDave]

Personally I'm minded to say they could do with reducing to 8-car hourly if they can't run 4-car half-hourly properly.

That would mean the Liverpool services could no longer use platform 4C at New Street, and that would require significant retimetabling to ensure that New Street doesn't run out of platforms, especially while one platform is closed for the rebuilding works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Punctuality stats (in the form of PPM) take into account reliability.

ie 78% is based on the services that were planned to operate and not the number that operated.

Ah, I see. However, it could appear artificially high if there were a large number of cancellations but the rest of the trains operated on time, which I think is likely to be the situation here.

A low figure for XC into Manchester is expected, as XC's long-distance trains are generally less punctual because of the number of interfaces with other services they have.

Neil

 

[LowLevel]

All Saturday afternoon and evening services are more vulnerable to cancellation due to train crew issues than others as to be frank, no drivers or guards have any interest in taking home a load of drunken states that tend to come with the role. I wouldn't come in to 'rescue' a Saturday evening train from cancellation for a large bag of used 20s, I'd rather leave the ****heads stuck (sadly) as some can't behave and go to the pub myself.

 

[Robertj21a]

All Saturday afternoon and evening services are more vulnerable to cancellation due to train crew issues than others as to be frank, no drivers or guards have any interest in taking home a load of drunken states that tend to come with the role. I wouldn't come in to 'rescue' a Saturday evening train from cancellation for a large bag of used 20s, I'd rather leave the ****heads stuck (sadly) as some can't behave and go to the pub myself.

Surely it shouldn't need 'rescuing' if sufficient staff are employed ?

 

[LowLevel]

Depends if the booked staff go sick or on leave doesn't it really! Cancel the vomit comets every week for me !

 

[the sniper]

All Saturday afternoon and evening services are more vulnerable to cancellation due to train crew issues than others as to be frank, no drivers or guards have any interest in taking home a load of drunken states that tend to come with the role. I wouldn't come in to 'rescue' a Saturday evening train from cancellation for a large bag of used 20s, I'd rather leave the ****heads stuck (sadly) as some can't behave and go to the pub myself.

Amen to that. Fridays and Saturdays are bad enough normally, those days in December are just absolutely awful. There's little incentive for LM staff to work RDW on Saturdays, plus the jobs are usually longer and seemingly more dense with work than on other days and the conditions on the later trains are often awful, sometimes chaotic, sometimes dangerous.

Saying that, if LM offered double time for RDW on Saturdays, then they might just manage to cover all the work.

 

[Robertj21a]

Depends if the booked staff go sick or on leave doesn't it really! Cancel the vomit comets every week for me !

No, not really. Staff going on leave and any last minute sickness should be catered for in the number of staff employed to run the system effectively. This shortage suggests that the number of (expensive) spare staff is not sufficient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amen to that. Fridays and Saturdays are bad enough normally, those days in December are just absolutely awful. There's little incentive for LM staff to work RDW on Saturdays, plus the jobs are usually longer and seemingly more dense with work than on other days and the conditions on the later trains are often awful, sometimes chaotic, sometimes dangerous.

It does alarm and sadden me to hear how bad these trains are when behaviour on the south WCML is not anything like as bad.

Would LM perhaps benefit from a deal with Merseyrail for some of their zero-tolerance "Robocops" to come in on a Friday and Saturday evening and start dishing out Byelaw summonses? Seems to have cleaned the act up on Merseyrail somewhat.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

It does alarm and sadden me to hear how bad these trains are when behaviour on the south WCML is not anything like as bad.

Would LM perhaps benefit from a deal with Merseyrail for some of their zero-tolerance "Robocops" to come in on a Friday and Saturday evening and start dishing out Byelaw summonses? Seems to have cleaned the act up on Merseyrail somewhat.

Neil

Nah, they're too busy telling people off for putting feet on seats.

Have police control access to the train at Liverpool to those sober enough to not be a nuisance, same at Liverpool South Parkway. Some will complain that it's unfair they're gonna be stranded till the morning, but that's their fault for not knowing their limits (and Byelaw 4).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nah, they're too busy telling people off for putting feet on seats.

I was never quite sure why they didn't reduce that by design by converting some seats on the 50x to airline when the refurb was done.

Neil

 

[LowLevel]

No, not really. Staff going on leave and any last minute sickness should be catered for in the number of staff employed to run the system effectively. This shortage suggests that the number of (expensive) spare staff is not sufficient.

How many spare staff do you think there should be? It's most unlikely but theoretically possible for everyone in the depot to knock sick at once - you couldn't cover for that. Nor could you afford to factor that cost in.

Like I said to an extent an element of goodwill is required (even if it's just hanging around a little over your hours) and it's not there as most train crew would shut the network down at 1800 on Saturday nights and leave the drunks and lairy singing footballists to rot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like I said to an extent an element of goodwill is required (even if it's just hanging around a little over your hours) and it's not there as most train crew would shut the network down at 1800 on Saturday nights and leave the drunks and lairy singing footballists to rot.

I'm sure they would. But in amongst the "drunks and lairy singing footballists" are people who don't deserve to be left stranded.

Neil

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed there are and I feel sorry for them being caught up in it as it's a miserable experience whether the train runs or not.

Sadly feeling sorry for them isn't sufficient to make me subject myself to the appalling behaviour, risk of unprovoked assault and general rubbish that occurs. We've had guards assaulted because their train didn't go where someone wanted, security guards shoved on the track, flashers - as I say, screw it. I submit myself to the requisite amount of misery that my contract requires but in case of my being asked to help in the event of short term unforeseen difficulty - forget it. Cancel the lot.

 

[Merseysider]

Indeed there are and I feel sorry for them being caught up in it as it's a miserable experience whether the train runs or not.

Sadly feeling sorry for them isn't sufficient to make me subject myself to the appalling behaviour, risk of unprovoked assault and general rubbish that occurs. We've had guards assaulted because their train didn't go where someone wanted, security guards shoved on the track, flashers - as I say, screw it. I submit myself to the requisite amount of misery that my contract requires but in case of my being asked to help in the event of short term unforeseen difficulty - forget it. Cancel the lot.

I imagine you would reconsider though if the drunk trains were adequately patrolled by subcontracted security staff or police, and there was a zero-tolerance approach to antisocial behaviour, and offenders were barred. A lot more trains would probably run as timed as well.

But those kind of measures are far too simple! :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine you would reconsider though if the drunk trains were adequately patrolled by subcontracted security staff or police, and there was a zero-tolerance approach to antisocial behaviour, and offenders were barred. A lot more trains would probably run as timed as well.

That certainly seems to be the approach taken by Merseyrail, and anecdotal evidence is that it is succeeding. So why not LM, Northern and TPE, all of which appear to have a significant antisocial behaviour problem in the North?

Neil

 

[NickBucks]

Well things had not improved this morning. I have lost count of the number of times the 7.08am from Berkhamsted to Euston has been cancelled this year or overrun due to engineering work. The latter I can except but LM seems to think it optional to run this service. Cancelled again today with no explanation. There must be a knock on to other operators as the service, when it runs, is used by many Virgin crews on the way in to Euston. Pity their management does not put pressure on LM to get their act together.

 

[455driver]

I imagine you would reconsider though if the drunk trains were adequately patrolled by subcontracted security staff or police, and there was a zero-tolerance approach to antisocial behaviour, and offenders were barred. A lot more trains would probably run as timed as well.

But those kind of measures are far too simple! :roll:

Or the TOCs used the bylaws and stopped the p1ssheads getting onto the stations in the first place then all the other points would be moot!

Oh and no I am not expecting 2 or 3 gateline staff to have to do it, maybe if they were backed up with half a dozen BTP officers but not on their own!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or the TOCs used the bylaws and stopped the p1ssheads getting onto the stations in the first place then all the other points would be moot!

I still can't help but wonder what it is that has turned the typical Northern p!sshead into far more of a danger to staff, other passengers and the railway than the typical Southern one.

I'm no stranger to late-night Merseyrail prior to the zero-tolerance stuff in the mid to late 1990s - done the 2340 home on a number of occasions, and the last stopper from Lime St to Manc Picc and vice versa. But it was *never* like this. And it still isn't at Euston, Paddington etc. Silliness, yes. The odd chucker-upper and a bit of fast food litter. But far less of the violence and intimidation being spoken about.



Neil

 

[LowLevel]

I think it's summed up by the nearly 20 police cars required to deal with a riot on an LM train from Liverpool this year. Hen and stag parties seem to be the latest 'must travel in a huge group and get wasted on a train and spoil other people's journey' as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's summed up by the nearly 20 police cars required to deal with a riot on an LM train from Liverpool this year. Hen and stag parties seem to be the latest 'must travel in a huge group and get wasted on a train and spoil other people's journey' as well.

But what on earth is causing this? That kind of thing is near enough unheard of at the other end of LM, and it doesn't seem you really get too much of it on the Tube either. The late Saturday evening "vomit comets" out of Euston, e.g. the 0010 or whatever time it is now, tend to contain people falling asleep, not fighting. The worst you seem to get is people chucking up or messing with the doors.

Neil

 

[Techniquest]

No, not really. Staff going on leave and any last minute sickness should be catered for in the number of staff employed to run the system effectively. This shortage suggests that the number of (expensive) spare staff is not sufficient.

Clearly someone doesn't work in the world of retail, that just doesn't happen. You cannot realistically have back-up cover for people being off ill, it doesn't work like that.

We had 3 people all go to hospital at once earlier this week, which is impossible to predict. Fortunately emergency cover was provided via myself, which meant abandoning my own lot, but in the real world there is no way any company without billions of pounds to play with every week can afford to pay for spare staff for such instances. Even less likely in this sort of economic climate!

I won't carry on as I could be here for hours discussing staffing levels!

As for London Midland, I've yet to have any major issues with them in all the years they've been running services. I've only ever had one cancellation affect me in 7 years, which I reckon is very good going. I've also never heard of multiple Liverpool services being cancelled on a regular basis, again I've always found the timetabled services running when I've been about on that side of things.

I must say I'm so very glad I don't travel on Fridays and Saturdays very often, judging by the sounds of things regarding late night travel on this thread alone!

 

[Tomnick]

Apparently unlike retail, the railway does have spare turns to cover sickness, annual leave, oversleeping, traincrew delayed elsewhere and so on - but, as has been said, just how much cover can they reasonably be expected to provide?

 

[Clip]

I imagine you would reconsider though if the drunk trains were adequately patrolled by subcontracted security staff or police, and there was a zero-tolerance approach to antisocial behaviour, and offenders were barred. A lot more trains would probably run as timed as well.

But those kind of measures are far too simple! :roll:

So you send a couple of security guards & BTP on the last one out of Liverpool to Brum and then what? You have to pay lodgings and O/T for them? And so on for other stations that they start/finish from? That's going to cost you a packet and who is going to pay for it?

That certainly seems to be the approach taken by Merseyrail, and anecdotal evidence is that it is succeeding. So why not LM, Northern and TPE, all of which appear to have a significant antisocial behaviour problem in the North?

Neil

Do Merseyrail send the police and sec staff to the end of the line or just for a couple of stations so that they can get a train back to their home station?

 

[Tomnick]

So you send a couple of security guards & BTP on the last one out of Liverpool to Brum and then what? You have to pay lodgings and O/T for them? And so on for other stations that they start/finish from? That's going to cost you a packet and who is going to pay for it?

I'd like to think that, in that case, they'd at least consider using security staff and/or BTP based in Birmingham - that way, they can be potentially useful whilst travelling out to Liverpool too! For a suburban service out of a major city, substituting that with a vehicle at the end of the route (or at least the part of the route to be patrolled), and it seems workable. It's unfortunate that the actions of the minority make their presence necessary though...!