London Midland ticket problem

[sn1975]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, 27th January I booked an off-peak day return on the London Midland website to travel with them between Atherstone and Stafford, returning with a break of journey at Tamworth.

As usual, I planned to collect my tickets from the TVM at Atherstone but on this occasion the machine appeared to be faulty with the card reader not working. I used the platform intercom to report the problem to customer services.

I purchased the tickets at around 0920, intending to travel on 1U29 between Atherstone and Stafford, departing Atherstone around 1100.

When I boarded 1U29 at Atherstone and asked for my tickets, I explained to the train manager what had happened and showed her my booking confirmation but she said it is a condition of the online booking that tickets cannot be collected until two hours after booking and that I would need to purchase a new ticket.

I was not previously aware of this condition and have had no difficulty in the past.

When I attempted to pay for the new ticket my card was declined by the chip and pin reader and needed to be read by the swipe reader, which was accepted.

When I returned home and checked my bank account, there appears to be a discrepancy of £6.90 unaccounted for, so it appears at the moment, that I have paid for the same ticket three times - the first time being the original on-line booking, the second time the chip and pin reader on the train, and the third time being the swipe card reader on the train?

Could this third transaction for the £6.90 amount be an authorisation hold, or have I really paid three times?

Firstly, Is it possible that I have a type of bank account and restricted debit card which cannot be read by an offline chip and pin reader, despite being told by NatWest that the card is of the fully-functioning type and paying them £10 per month for the privilege?

Finally, because the original ticket hasn't been collected am I entitled to a refund, and if so, how do I apply for this?

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[sarahj]

No, if the card declines on the chip and pin and then works through swipe you would only be charged once. You would get a receipt to confirm the transaction. Have you checked that. TBH I'm even surprised the payment on the train went through so quickly, I know of folks who are happy with the swipe and sign as the payment goes through a few days later. The payment is not even processed until the conductor returns to base, machine is handed in and everything is downloaded from the advantix. My first port of call then is to check your statement and see whats gone out, one payment may have been an auth from your original booking. As for time between booking, i've heard 2 hours, one hour, right away, no confirmation. But if a booked ticket has not been collected, the instructions are to see them a new one and tell the punter to claim the refund. Some folks don't like to hear this.

As for your card, Natwest are crap for off-line transactions on the train.. Can your card do contactless. Sometimes your offline balance can have been breached and sticking your card in a cashpoint, you don't even have to take any money out, can re-set it. As for speaking to banks, they have no clue. They go, well no authorisation was requested, no nothing wrong on our end, or with you card.

But again main advice, check your statement, see whats actually gone out, not just a instant balance with includes auth's. If more than one payment has actually gone out, then you kick up a stink.

 

[najaB]

....she said it is a condition of the online booking that tickets cannot be collected until two hours after booking and that I would need to purchase a new ticket.

I was not previously aware of this condition and have had no difficulty in the past.

It's not. While some websites will tell you that there's a two-hour delay before you can collect, in practice you'll often be able to collect them no more than ten to twenty minutes after booking.

Finally, because the original ticket hasn't been collected am I entitled to a refund, and if so, how do I apply for this?

You are entitled to a refund, but I expect that when you apply for it they will initially say that the £10 admin fee means that you won't get any money back. If (when) that happens, don't accept that answer and make it clear that you only purchased the second ticket because the machine was not working to collect your original ticket.

 

[Aeion]

Were both ticket vending machines faulty or just the one on the down line? As a conductor faults usually get reported and recorded pretty quickly so if requesting a refund it should be noted that both were down.

 

[island]

The only ways I know of definitively finding out whether a card is online use only is finding someone at your bank who knows what they're on about (good luck) or using a device that can read and decode a magnetic stripe.

Even contactless cards are now not assured of being usable on trains for various off-topic reasons.

 

[sheff1]

When I boarded 1U29 at Atherstone and asked for my tickets, I explained to the train manager what had happened and showed her my booking confirmation but she said it is a condition of the online booking that tickets cannot be collected until two hours after booking and that I would need to purchase a new ticket.

I was not previously aware of this condition and have had no difficulty in the past.

It is not a condition as such but your booking confirmation will state when the tickets can be collected - this may be immediately, 10 mins or 2 hours after you made the booking depending on the seller. In practice tickets are usually available well before the maximum time of 2 hours but if you book on a site which specifies 2 hours then I can understand why someone might query things if the 2 hours had not yet expired.

Of course, a TVM not working at all is a different matter all together. You say you used used the contact point on the station to talk to Customer Services. What, exactly did they tell you to do ? Did you get the name of the person you spoke to ?

 

[najaB]

The only ways I know of definitively finding out whether a card is online use only is finding someone at your bank who knows what they're on about (good luck) or using a device that can read and decode a magnetic stripe.

Does the AID no longer identify the card type?

 

[island]

Does the AID no longer identify the card type?

Not reliably now for Visa cards, and not at all for MasterCard debit cards.

 

[Hadders]

I've checked some of my recent booking confirmation emails and I can't see anything saying how long you should give before collecting tickets. I've used VTEC, GWR and VTWC recently.

I do have booking confirmations from my employer's corporate travel provider which says to leave 20 minutes.

 

[323235]

http://tickets.londonmidland.com/lm/en/faqs/ViewFaq?id=26

London Midland state that tickets are available 2 hours after purchase, so in this case the Guard was correct on this point. I do not know how you would have stood if you had met a Penalty Fare collector, on the basis stating that you were intending to travel with tickets, that strictly speaking weren't available for collection?

It is a difficult one as if you provide evidence to London Midland of a booking reference / confirmation they could extend this view, despite a faulty machine. We will never know if they were 100% ready at the time of travel. If you are going to leave it that late then to cover yourself, I would perhaps consider booking with another company who do offer guaranteed immediate or less than 90 minute collection.

 

[kevinwaltets]

I often book using Red Spotted Hanky mobile app (which Doesn't charge a £1 fee like their desktop version. The RSH mobile app doesn't include Tweedbank or other borders stations. ) and collect within a couple of minutes at Poole. There is no delay specified in the terms.

 

[TPJ]

The Arriva Wales Train website refuses to sell tickets for travel within the next 2 hours

 

[100andthirty]

This is all bonkers, and easily solved by simply allowing thectickets to be printed at home. The tickets would have a QR code on them. This coukd be paper or on a mobile device. This is exaclty what happens if you buy a ticket for Eurostar, from Voyages SNCF and from SNCB (who sell tickets valid into the Netherlands too. Conductors carry hand held QR readers.

By all means retain the 'collect range tickets from a ticket machine after 2 hours have elapsed" if that's what some customers want, but the OP's story is another example of the railway's 'heads we win, tails you lose' attitide of many operators (or their staff, not sure which).

 

[najaB]

This is all bonkers, and easily solved by simply allowing thectickets to be printed at home.

Thanks for that. I guess you don't know that print at home tickets are already offered by several TOCs.

 

[talldave]

The Arriva Wales Train website refuses to sell tickets for travel within the next 2 hours

I used to get that on Southern's site. But on the old site you didn't have to select a train, and the tickets could be collected immediately. I've stood next to a TVM, bought tickets on my phone and collected instantly from the TVM.

If the site you use doesn't do what you want, take your business elsewhere. Southern have ruined their ticketing site so I have switched to Hull Trains.

 

[35B]

A couple of years ago, there was an ATOC driven upgrade of TVMs to allow a guaranteed 20 minutes from booking to pickup, replacing the previous 2 hours. As I understand it, this was all a back office and comms upgrade. I suspect the folk memory of 2 hours remains, and has been exhibited here. That said, both the LM and East Ciast websites use the same "tickets are ready for collection 2 hours after booking" phrase, suggesting that online isn't a good way to buy for immediate use.

Although I'm not a particular fan of them, I don't see why inter available self print or M tickets should be so hard for the industry to implement given so much is done online today, and so many stations are either unstaffed or onky staffed on a single shift.

 

[SickyNicky]

The time taken depends on the back-end system being used by the retailer. Some of us have systems that insert the bookings directly into the CTR database (and have always done so), so tickets are available for collection immediately (the RailUKforums booking engine does this).

Others employ (or at least, used to employ, I don't know for certain now) a batch process where bookings are inserted "en mass" every so often. These systems (such as Trainline) obviously aren't (weren't) available for immediate collection - you had to wait for the next batch to process.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Although I'm not a particular fan of them, I don't see why inter available self print or M tickets should be so hard for the industry to implement given so much is done online today, and so many stations are either unstaffed or onky staffed on a single shift.

You don't live in the north then ?

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/rail-travel/your-ticket/m-tickets/m-tickets-eligible-routes/

 

[35B]

You don't live in the north then ?

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/rail-travel/your-ticket/m-tickets/m-tickets-eligible-routes/

No - my username is a clue. But even the EC print at home are only usable on their own services, which is my real point.

 

[Wallsendmag]

No - my username is a clue. But even the EC print at home are only usable on their own services, which is my real point.

m-Tickets are any TOC in the area though

 

[najaB]

Others employ (or at least, used to employ, I don't know for certain now) a batch process where bookings are inserted "en mass" every so often. These systems (such as Trainline) obviously aren't (weren't) available for immediate collection - you had to wait for the next batch to process.

Either they (TrainLine) now do direct entry or the time between batches is a lot shorter as I've booked and collected pretty quickly. Not that long ago I bought a ticket while on the train just before we reached South Gyle and collected it at Haymarket.

 

[A0]

Getting back on topic - I have to say if the TVM was faulty and the OP reported this, then frankly the '2 hour before collection' is irrelevant.

Even if the OP had turned up 2 hours later, they still would not have been able to collect their tickets - and that's the point I'd be making. So the OP has suffered a consequential loss - as a result of the TVM being faulty.

The TOC should be keeping records of TVM faults, so it should be easy enough to confirm whether there was a genuine issue.

What I would say to the OP though is it's always worth having more than one credit / debit card. I believe that the insertion of the card isn't about taking payment when collecting pre-paid tickets - my workplace uses a 3rd party to book tickets - at the TVMs you have to insert a card before you can get to the 'collect pre-paid tickets' screen, but it's not the card which has been used to pay.

 

[100andthirty]

Thanks for that. I guess you don't know that print at home tickets are already offered by several TOCs.

That's good to know, thanks. Does that mean if I buy tickets from that TOC for any journey, I can print the ticket at home?

 

[najaB]

That's good to know, thanks. Does that mean if I buy tickets from that TOC for any journey, I can print the ticket at home?

For any journey that they offer print at home tickets, yes. They aren't available for all routes or for all ticket types for the same reason that you can't do a print at home airline ticket for a journey that involves changing airlines mid-air.

 

[Haywain]

What I would say to the OP though is it's always worth having more than one credit / debit card. I believe that the insertion of the card isn't about taking payment when collecting pre-paid tickets - my workplace uses a 3rd party to book tickets - at the TVMs you have to insert a card before you can get to the 'collect pre-paid tickets' screen, but it's not the card which has been used to pay.

This is not great advice. In the majority of cases the same card as used for the booking will be required to collect the ticket. Tickets booked through business accounts will not have this requirement for obvious reasons.

That's good to know, thanks. Does that mean if I buy tickets from that TOC for any journey, I can print the ticket at home?

Not necessarily - most TOCs offer Self Print tickets, but these are usually only for Advance tickets, and not the more flexible varieties. However, an increasin number of TOCs are participating in offering m-tickets, particularly in the north of England.

 

[A0]

This is not great advice. In the majority of cases the same card as used for the booking will be required to collect the ticket. Tickets booked through business accounts will not have this requirement for obvious reasons.

Do the TVMs actually validate the card being presented is the one used to pay when a pre-paid ticket is being collected? If they did, then there would be no need to enter a collection code.

I don't know if any of the ticket sites allow the use of Paypal - but if they do then you'll be faced with the same issue, which is why I'm not sure the TVM actually does that validation.

 

[sheff1]

Do the TVMs actually validate the card being presented is the one used to pay when a pre-paid ticket is being collected?

I have been presented with a message telling me to insert the card I paid with when I have mistakenly inserted another one.

 

[najaB]

Do the TVMs actually validate the card being presented is the one used to pay when a pre-paid ticket is being collected? If they did, then there would be no need to enter a collection code.

It depends on a number of factors - bookings can be set to allow 'any card' collection, and not all machine types actually do the validation. So the answer is 'sometimes'.

In the past inserted I have been able to collect by just inserting the card and the tickets have printed without me having to enter the code.

 

[Haywain]

Do the TVMs actually validate the card being presented is the one used to pay when a pre-paid ticket is being collected? If they did, then there would be no need to enter a collection code.

Yes, where the booking is set up for same card collection. The reference number is required in order to establish which booking you are collecting. It also prevents attempts to collect the wrong booking when a booking has not completed correctly.

I don't know if any of the ticket sites allow the use of Paypal - but if they do then you'll be faced with the same issue, which is why I'm not sure the TVM actually does that validation.

Where Paypal or e-vouchers have been used for payment, the booking will be set for Any Card collection.

In the past inserted I have been able to collect by just inserting the card and the tickets have printed without me having to enter the code.

There were changes to some software a couple of months ago which mean that the percentage of bookings that require the same card for collection increased fairly significantly. This is TVM software, so it is likely to be dependant on both where the booking was made and where it is collected.

 

[6Gman]

What I would say to the OP though is it's always worth having more than one credit / debit card.

For a £2.30 fare I find those round metal things quite useful.

Or even paper money.