London Midland Peak only train

[Tibbs]

Just had an announcement from the guard on this service saying 'Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service.' It's the 1751 from Euston to Northampton (I think).

I've mentioned it on twitter, but can anyone think off the top of their head a valid off peak ticket for this service?

Thanks!

 

[bb21]

London to Lancaster.

 

[Merseysider]

London to Holyhead, and a plethora of other Welsh stations.

 

[higthomas]

Guildford - Northampton

 

[Tibbs]

Thanks

 

[Tibbs]

Even the twitter thinks that the peak applies to trains...

 

[Tibbs]

For anyone wanting to follow the fun...

https://twitter.com/chris_tibble/status/504311312789569536

 

[Jona26]

Often get this on Virgin services departing Euston too. Last Wednesday on 18:34 to Liverpool the guard made a similar announcement prior to departure and promised all sorts of dire consequences of doing so. I was travelling to Shotton on return portion of SVR ticket. Despite the warning (and there being no barrier check at Euston) he made no appearance and made no further announcements at all by Crewe, despite late running and being held for a while at Stafford.

 

[RJ]

Just had an announcement from the guard on this service saying 'Off Peak tickets are not valid on this service.' It's the 1751 from Euston to Northampton (I think).

I've mentioned it on twitter, but can anyone think off the top of their head a valid off peak ticket for this service?

Thanks!

South Hampstead to Northampton via London.

 

[Hadders]

I've had this too on an evening peak train from Paddington where the guard announced that 'super off-peak and off-peak tickets are not valid on this train and you will be required to purchase a new ticket at the full anytime fare'.

I sat there with my combination which included a Stevenage-Reading off-peak day return ticket and awaited the ticket check with interest. After a good look at my tickets the guard stamped them and moved on.

I thought an excess was the correct course of action when travelling at a barred time on an off-peak ticket? If I'm correct why do some guards say a new anytime ticket will need to be purchased?

 

[Qwerty133]

Get this everywhere, once had a XC guard say something like 'off peak day tickets are not valid on this service, only anytime and off peak tickets may be used. Please check carefully whether your ticket has the work day on it.'

 

[RJ]

I thought an excess was the correct course of action when travelling at a barred time on an off-peak ticket? If I'm correct why do some guards say a new anytime ticket will need to be purchased?

I've been on trains and seen people being charged in this manner as well. It doesn't do anything to promote trust in staff or the image of the railways, especially if another passenger who happens to know that rule pipes up. Many people will just pay up, either through embarassment or fear of worse consequences.

As for having the right ticket in the first place, I happen to think that Off Peak restrictions are a perplexing phenomenon, so a great number of people travelling at the wrong time will have made a genuine mistake.

 

[Hadders]

A few months ago I had a meeting near Mitcham Junction station. I had an off-peak day travelcard from Stevenage-London Zones 1-6.

My meeting over-ran and I needed to return during the evening peak from Kings Cross. As I had 20 minutes to wait for a train at Mitcham Junction I wandered over to the booking office to ask for an excess to an anytime ticket be met with a reaction from the clerk suggesting that I was from another planet when I asked for an excess. I couldn't work out if the clerk was incompetent or lazy.

As it happens I was able to get the excess at Kings Cross without needing to delay my journey but what should I have done if I'd been met with the same reaction at Kings Cross as at Mitcham Junction? What if the queue had been out of the door at Kings Cross. Would I have been obliged to delay my journey?

Trains between Kings Cross and Stevenage are DOO so here would've been no chance to buy on board from the guard. I do wonder what the reaction of an RPI would have been or the barrier staff at Stevenage if I'd shown them an off-peak ticket.

 

[bb21]

Given that there is no penalty for this type of excess regardless of whether an opportunity to pay existed before boarding, I would say just get on. At the other end, you just pay an excess as normal.

The problem with not obtaining the excess before boarding of course lies with getting through the gateline at King's Cross if it were manned.

 

[GadgetMan]

If I'm correct why do some guards say a new anytime ticket will need to be purchased?

Because retail training is ****** poor in many TOCs. When I started as a Guard in 2002 I was given a full 4 weeks in the classroom with a very competent and experienced retail tutor.

New Guards at the same depot now get given 4 days retail training by current poorly trained RPIs who are released for the duration.

Having now moved TOCs I witnessed a Guard do exactly the above, charge a passenger for a full price Anytime ticket instead of excessing the off-peak already held at a fraction of the cost.

Not wanting to put him in an awkward position I let him complete the transaction and then had a word with him away from other passengers explaining the correct procedure to excess the ticket. I suggested he could tell the passenger he'd had a change of heart and refund the money as a gesture of goodwill to avoid embarrassment of getting it wrong.

He insisted that those were the rules he was taught and has been working to them for a number of years. Can't really argue with that, if that's what he was (wrongly) taught. I typed up a complaint email for the lady to fire off to the TOC to get the overcharged amount refunded.

I then popped into the Guards Managers office and suggested it might be a good idea to put a reminder of correct excess procedure on the retail notice board to be told what the Guard did was absolutely correct and got shown a official document at least 3 years old pointing out that passengers with invalid off-peak tickets should be charged for a completely new valid ticket.

I then showed him the relevant pages in The ATOC Manual, to be told they don't apply to our TOC. A second manager in the office agreed with that stance too.:roll:

 

[Hadders]

The problem with not obtaining the excess before boarding of course lies with getting through the gateline at King's Cross if it were manned.

There's no problem getting through the barriers at Kings Cross with an off-peak travelcard at any time of day as the ticket could quite legitimately be used to make a journey within the zones, for example to Finsbury Park.

 

[yorkie]

I then showed him the relevant pages in The ATOC Manual, to be told they don't apply to our TOC. A second manager in the office agreed with that stance too.:roll:

I have contacts at head office if you want to take it further; PM me

but the point you make about poor training is spot on and a real cause for concern. There is a lack of effective regulation, mystery shopping is a farce, and no-one to enforce the TOCs are sticking to their NRCoC commitments

 

[Tibbs]

This is fun!

They're now telling me that the 0530, 0643, 0730, 0743 0830 and 0843 trains are 'Peak Only' Euston to Lancaster.

I'm a bit busy at work to do a load of searching until lunch - anyone with an off peak ticket I can use on these sevices?

Thanks - beer for you at the next meet up

 

[bb21]

A Super Off-Peak Return that is valid on any train out of Euston after an overnight break.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EXD&dest=EDB&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SSR

 

[Tibbs]

Ah well, they've fobbed me off onto comments@....

I shall not be turned aside from my course in demonstrating that what they're saying makes absolutely no sense. :roll:

 

[bb21]

I must say that I do feel a little bit sorry for the guys manning the twitter pages. I don't imagine that it is in their job description to specialise in this area so it is not really their fault that they are poorly trained in that regard, and most of them outside ticketing do a pretty good job.

TOCs really need at least one person who knows about ticketing to supplement the guys manning the twitter feed, even if it is just one person shared amongst a few companies.

 

[Tibbs]

I must say that I do feel a little bit sorry for the guys manning the twitter pages. I don't imagine that it is in their job description to specialise in this area so it is not really their fault that they are poorly trained in that regard, and most of them outside ticketing do a pretty good job.

TOCs really need at least one person who knows about ticketing to supplement the guys manning the twitter feed, even if it is just one person shared amongst a few companies.

Indeed, and had they just said - 'I'll look into it', or even, god forbid, 'I don't know' then I'd have happily dropped it.

It's because they kept insisting what they said was right, when it's clearly rubbish that I felt no compuction in keeping on at them.

Ah well, I'll FCC 'em!

 

[Clip]

Indeed, and had they just said - 'I'll look into it', or even, god forbid, 'I don't know' then I'd have happily dropped it.

It's because they kept insisting what they said was right, when it's clearly rubbish that I felt no compuction in keeping on at them.

Ah well, I'll FCC 'em!

You are banging on a bit to them I must say and quite possibly keeping them from answering other people. Hectoring the poor sod on the feed like that is a good way to get yourself blocked.

 

[Tibbs]

You are banging on a bit to them I must say and quite possibly keeping them from answering other people. Hectoring the poor sod on the feed like that is a good way to get yourself blocked.

Were there other people who didn't get answered? (this isn't a rhetorical question, could you link them please?)

And I wasn't hectoring, I was never rude, I was trying to get a straight answer to my question.

If someone states something to be true, particularly a representative of a company, they need to be able to back up what they say with facts. The LM Twitter feed team haven't (and evidently can't).

I get hard questions all the time, and people expect me to back up what I say with facts & figures. I expect that from other people, too, especially when I have lots of evidence to back up my point of view. 'Because I said so' may have worked when I was 7, but nowadays I need reason and logic.

 

[Clip]

I havent checked the rest of their feed so couldnt tell you.,

Yes, they should be getting it right but they probably get less training for what they do than ticket office staff do and possibly the guards.

And yes I would call it hectoring as you havent shut up about it for 2/3 days now. If you have a complaint for that long then why are you not contacting them through the form on their website/email or even a telephone call?

These people are just trying to assist those who may want to know about train running information or onward connections yet there you are like a dog with two c0cks because they have got something wrong and you're so happy about it you have come on here making a thread and gloating about what you are doing.

Doesnt look good or grown up when there are better channels to go through to ensure that the information given is correct.

I wont even start on the guard part because you just wont care about that.

 

[Tibbs]

I havent checked the rest of their feed so couldnt tell you.,

Yes, they should be getting it right but they probably get less training for what they do than ticket office staff do and possibly the guards.

And yes I would call it hectoring as you havent shut up about it for 2/3 days now. If you have a complaint for that long then why are you not contacting them through the form on their website/email or even a telephone call?

These people are just trying to assist those who may want to know about train running information or onward connections yet there you are like a dog with two c0cks because they have got something wrong and you're so happy about it you have come on here making a thread and gloating about what you are doing.

Doesnt look good or grown up when there are better channels to go through to ensure that the information given is correct.

I wont even start on the guard part because you just wont care about that.

So I didn't stop anyone from getting info then, that was just a red herring? Thought so.

As I said before - had they said 'I don't know' or 'these people are better to comment on this' I would have done that. They could also have said 'this isn't the forum for this, please contact...' which they did, eventually. As you'll notice, I have now gone down that route. They didn't, they posted something that was demonstrably wrong, and kept saying it despite ample evidence to the contrary. As for 2 or 3 days, I had a conversation on the first day, I posted once on the second day and I had another conversation on the third. They kept engaging, saying things that were demonstrably false and I kept replying with evidence to that end.

Please get started on the guard part - I'm all ears. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting this.

/edit and while I respect your views on my style, I notice that you haven't said anything I've written is wrong. Has it been wrong?

 

[Clip]

So I didn't stop anyone from getting info then, that was just a red herring? Thought so.

Ididnt say you did I said you couldve quite possibly done so, so stop trying to be smug.

As I said before - had they said 'I don't know' or 'these people are better to comment on this' I would have done that. They could also have said 'this isn't the forum for this, please contact...' which they did, eventually. As you'll notice, I have now gone down that route. They didn't, they posted something that was demonstrably wrong, and kept saying it despite ample evidence to the contrary. As for 2 or 3 days, I had a conversation on the first day, I posted once on the second day and I had another conversation on the third. They kept engaging, saying things that were demonstrably false and I kept replying with evidence to that end.

Yes and lots of people do that on the railway they are called human beings and get things wqrong especially if they have been told that the information they have been given is correct thats the failings of their management not them.

Please get started on the guard part - I'm all ears. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting this.

Well this thread started out as you mentioniung the guard saying that off peak tickets were not valid, this is very true on lots of off peak ticket types but not all - I am sure you will agree? However , the guard has to make announcements and get the train dispatched and how long do you think it would take for them to make such a long announcement and how many people would here just a bit of it then think that all off peak tickets were valid? Its a bad practice to fall into but the guard is human and it happens to us all ( but I bet not you because you are perfect in every way arent you?)

/edit and while I respect your views on my style, I notice that you haven't said anything I've written is wrong. Has it been wrong

Why does it matter if you were right or wrong - I couldnt care less, nothing I posted mentioned anything about the content of your posts just that you were coming across as hectoring the poor buggers and seeing how there is every chance that by day 2 or 3 it was a different person on the twitter page then they probably had no idea what you were going on about at first.

As I said, first port of call for these issues is to take it up with the TOCs through the proper channels not try and revel in some sort of 'Im right, you;re wrong' playground grandstanding

 

[Tibbs]

Ididnt say you did I said you couldve quite possibly done so, so stop trying to be smug.





Yes and lots of people do that on the railway they are called human beings and get things wqrong especially if they have been told that the information they have been given is correct thats the failings of their management not them.



Well this thread started out as you mentioniung the guard saying that off peak tickets were not valid, this is very true on lots of off peak ticket types but not all - I am sure you will agree? However , the guard has to make announcements and get the train dispatched and how long do you think it would take for them to make such a long announcement and how many people would here just a bit of it then think that all off peak tickets were valid? Its a bad practice to fall into but the guard is human and it happens to us all ( but I bet not you because you are perfect in every way arent you?)



Why does it matter if you were right or wrong - I couldnt care less, nothing I posted mentioned anything about the content of your posts just that you were coming across as hectoring the poor buggers and seeing how there is every chance that by day 2 or 3 it was a different person on the twitter page then they probably had no idea what you were going on about at first.

As I said, first port of call for these issues is to take it up with the TOCs through the proper channels not try and revel in some sort of 'Im right, you;re wrong' playground grandstanding

I've never said it was the guard's fault, I reported what she said and requested that she stop being told to say it. With all the other stuff they have to say, replacing the incorrect 'only anytime tickets are valid on this train' with 'make sure your ticket is valid on this service - you can look up the restriction code on your ticket on google.' seems reasonable. Given the proliferation of smartphones on board trains nowadays (I'd estimate that 90% of people on that train would have had one based on what I saw in my carriage) that's a much better way than a blanket comment that's wrong.

 

[Clip]

I've never said it was the guard's fault, I reported what she said and requested that she stop being told to say it. With all the other stuff they have to say, replacing the incorrect 'only anytime tickets are valid on this train' with 'make sure your ticket is valid on this service - you can look up the restriction code on your ticket on google.' seems reasonable. Given the proliferation of smartphones on board trains nowadays (I'd estimate that 90% of people on that train would have had one based on what I saw in my carriage) that's a much better way than a blanket comment that's wrong.

Ahh so now the guard should be telling passengers to look up their own tickets now!! What a fantastic and amazingly brilliant idea and customer friendly bit of advice that is,you will go far in life.

However in the real world without your assumption that that high a figure had smartphones and even if so they were on, had credit or even signal,the reading of restriction codes is not as straight forward as you may think. Look at the random ticket BB21 posted, yes to those familiar with ticketing will understand it with ease but to your average bod there's a lot of information there all about differing issues related to the ticket and this could cause more confusion for passengers.

But you carry on,you've already admitted how much fun you were having trying to get a straight answer, ill just chalk you down as another condescending enthusiast towards rail staff its ok you're not alone with that so you're not that special.


And yes I love my sarcasm as it shows my utter disdain towards you and your attitude

 

[GadgetMan]

I've never said it was the guard's fault, I reported what she said and requested that she stop being told to say it. With all the other stuff they have to say, replacing the incorrect 'only anytime tickets are valid on this train' with 'make sure your ticket is valid on this service - you can look up the restriction code on your ticket on google.' seems reasonable. Given the proliferation of smartphones on board trains nowadays (I'd estimate that 90% of people on that train would have had one based on what I saw in my carriage) that's a much better way than a blanket comment that's wrong.

You'd then get a thread on here asking if passengers are now expected to carry smart phones with data bundles to be able to travel on the UK Railway.

Its all down to our ticketing system being way over complicated.

A more useful announcement may be "...the majority of off-peak tickets are not valid on this train, if you hold a invalid ticket then you will be charged an excess fare."

It's impossible to provide announcements to cover all restrictions and journeys.