London Midland Overtime Ban

[O L Leigh]

...and so the conversation goes around again.

O L Leigh

 

[riordan]

you guys seem to have missed a trick here.

the rail industry in general relies on overtime working and has for decades. LM shares this reliance. LM's franchise runs for 7 1/2yrs, with just 4yrs outstanding. when franchise ends go-ahead has no guarantee of extension; they may find themselves having to 'hand back the keys'. faced with this uncertainty LM could hardly be blamed for its reluctance to recruit and train new staff - the costs are v.v.expensive, believe me.

what LM can be blamed for is promising a service on the back of a wing and a prayer - voluntary OT and goodwill. given the way LM seems to have gone out of its way to antagonise staff it shouldn't surprise anyone when this particular business continuity plan collapses like a house of cards

 

[Tringonometry]

But drivers already get a very generous basic salary.

Agreed. Not in dispute. Which is why it's all the more galling when some of those in receipt of that salary undermine their work colleagues by not going along with a collective decision to not work on rest days. And yes, it's all down to individual circumstances, and clearly some people will have mitigating circumtances, whereas others are simply bloody-minded or greedy.

A simple analogy:

Let's say we all play for a Sunday morning football team. None of us is any good, if we're honest, but we all work hard and are well-organised. As a result, we often overcome technically superior teams by virtue of attitude and teamwork. Our group norm (if you'll excuse the behavioural therapy mumbo jumbo) is to put teamwork first.

If one of our number stopped working hard for the team and chose not to conform to the group norm, we'd likely be hacked off, wouldn't we?

In essence, it's not about the Union. It's about the group of employees at each depot.

 

[dcmbarton]

To be brutally honest, as a passenger, at the end of the day I have no interest whatsoever in the ins and outs of the dispute itself. Whatever they are, the effect is the same, and at present, I don't see any resolution in sight. In fact, there was a piece on the news this morning about further strikes being planned.

As I've said before, because of my eyesight, I'm not allowed to drive. The buses are useless and so I'm reliant on the trains. I'm also self-employed, and because of the unreliability of LM at the moment, I'm actually losing business because I can't guarantee to be in a particular place at a particular time. I don't think LM actually realise the consequences of this on-going dispute for passengers - I have no interest in their endless apologies; as a passenger, I want to know that they are actually seeking a resolution (and so far, there appears to have been less than no progress).

 

[MKB]

If I ran a company, where as a favour to the employees, I allowed some of the standard work to be performed at overtime rates, I'd make damn sure the employees entered into a contractual commitment so that they could not back out of doing the overtime.

If they reneged on the agreement, I'd recruit additional staff to cover the work at non-overtime rates.

What is happening on the railways is utter madness.

Despite everything written in this thread, LM still have not explained why they simply don't call the drivers' bluff: let the drivers stick to their work to rule: employ extra drivers and arrange rotas so that all seven days are covered on a non-overtime basis.

 

[notadriver]

Because it's so easy to get more drivers MKB?!! Just pulling a lever and pressing buttons innit??

 

[js47604]

If I ran a company, where as a favour to the employees, I allowed some of the standard work to be performed at overtime rates, I'd make damn sure the employees entered into a contractual commitment so that they could not back out of doing the overtime.

If they reneged on the agreement, I'd recruit additional staff to cover the work at non-overtime rates.

What is happening on the railways is utter madness.

Despite everything written in this thread, LM still have not explained why they simply don't call the drivers' bluff: let the drivers stick to their work to rule: employ extra drivers and arrange rotas so that all seven days are covered on a non-overtime basis.

The problem with that is no driver in his right mind would apply to work for LM under this regime.I choose to travel an hour either way each day when I have an LM depot within 10 minutes of my home.

Also,to train a Driver from scratch takes 6-9 months upwards and costs upwards of £70,000 per driver so the company are not going to overstaff to cover a once weekly problem.In addition to this,ASLE&F would not agree to this under any circumstances and the end game would be more action on other days.

Unfortunately for LM,they put themselves in this position and will now have to pay to get out of it.

 

[dcmbarton]

Nice to see that LM are starting the week as they mean to go on... overhead wire problems on the X-City line this evening... chaos reigns!

 

[Greenback]

If I ran a company, where as a favour to the employees, I allowed some of the standard work to be performed at overtime rates, I'd make damn sure the employees entered into a contractual commitment so that they could not back out of doing the overtime.

If they reneged on the agreement, I'd recruit additional staff to cover the work at non-overtime rates.

What is happening on the railways is utter madness.

Despite everything written in this thread, LM still have not explained why they simply don't call the drivers' bluff: let the drivers stick to their work to rule: employ extra drivers and arrange rotas so that all seven days are covered on a non-overtime basis.

I didn't realise overtime was a favour to the employees! I alays thought it allowed companies to get away with employing fewer staff, at a much lower cost in terms of training, salary, NI, uniform etc.

I'm not sure how you could arrange work over 7 days if the drivers have contracts that don't include Sunday working, either. I suppose you could put all your new recruits on to 7 day contracts, they shopuld be ready to work Sundays in about a year or so.

Then again, the costs of recruting all these extra staff, and training them up, may cost an awful lot of money for your company. Your shareholders may then be a bit upset, which may result in you no longer running the company!

Just trying to point out that nothing is as simple as it seems!

 

[riordan]

If I ran a company, where as a favour to the employees, I allowed some of the standard work to be performed at overtime rates, I'd make damn sure the employees entered into a contractual commitment so that they could not back out of doing the overtime.

If they reneged on the agreement, I'd recruit additional staff to cover the work at non-overtime rates.

What is happening on the railways is utter madness.

Despite everything written in this thread, LM still have not explained why they simply don't call the drivers' bluff: let the drivers stick to their work to rule: employ extra drivers and arrange rotas so that all seven days are covered on a non-overtime basis.

you obviously didn't scan my earlier post; recruitment/training costs are v. expensive, almost prohibitively so. why do you think LM is twisting itself out of shape to NOT recruit and train new staff? with just 4yrs left on the franchise, would YOU?

 

[Seacook]

If I ran a company, where as a favour to the employees, I allowed some of the standard work to be performed at overtime rates, I'd make damn sure the employees entered into a contractual commitment so that they could not back out of doing the overtime.

If they reneged on the agreement, I'd recruit additional staff to cover the work at non-overtime rates.

And having negotiated a contract would you then unilaterally void it by reducing the overtime rates of pay? LM management were deluded if they thought that a 25% cut in pay for Sunday working was going to meet with universal approval.

 

[87015]

And having negotiated a contract would you then unilaterally void it by reducing the overtime rates of pay? LM management were deluded if they thought that a 25% cut in pay for Sunday working was going to meet with universal approval.

The raise to 1.9x Sunday pay was always a fixed term agreement, they haven't reduced the base rate of 1.5x for Sundays.

 

[Tringonometry]

The raise to 1.9x Sunday pay was always a fixed term agreement, they haven't reduced the base rate of 1.5x for Sundays.

The rate required to induce us to turn up on a Sunday is inversely proportional to the quality of management inflicted upon us.

Simple, really.

 

[radamfi]

If LM offered 5x on Sunday as a temporary measure then there would be an overtime ban if that was reduced to 4x.

 

[SS4]

Surely that's the drivers' prerogative though? Drivers get a bonus for volunteering to work on Sunday and if, in each driver's opinion, the remuneration is no longer greater than the inconvenience of working Sundays then it is his or her contractual right to choose not to work.

I cannot fathom to see how London Midland could not see this, it seems glaringly obvious unless it was the amount. The two solutions are to either change existing contracts with good compensation or to hire new drivers with Sunday working contracted into it.

While this is going on London Midland stand to lose money. For example I can buy a LM only Super Off Peak from BHM-EUS for £11.55 (with a railcard) for Sunday and be reasonably confident that the overtime ban will mean I can get a Virgin train there and back and surely LM would have to compensate VT for this loss of revenue

 

[radamfi]

While this is going on London Midland stand to lose money. For example I can buy a LM only Super Off Peak from BHM-EUS for £11.55 (with a railcard) for Sunday and be reasonably confident that the overtime ban will mean I can get a Virgin train there and back and surely LM would have to compensate VT for this loss of revenue

Does anyone know precisely whether or how other TOCs are compensated for carrying LM passengers?

Not sure that many passengers know about the loophole of using LM only fares on Virgin, which is presumably where a huge amount of money can be lost. If too many people do that then LM will simply withdraw the ticket.

Maybe LM don't lose much if any money by not running on Sunday as they don't have to pay for drivers, guards or trains. No fines for delaying other train operators. So they will be happy not running on Sundays for the remainder of the franchise.

 

[SS4]

Does anyone know precisely whether or how other TOCs are compensated for carrying LM passengers?

Not sure that many passengers know about the loophole of using LM only fares on Virgin, which is presumably where a huge amount of money can be lost. If too many people do that then LM will simply withdraw the ticket.

Maybe LM don't lose much if any money by not running on Sunday as they don't have to pay for drivers, guards or trains. No fines for delaying other train operators. So they will be happy not running on Sundays for the remainder of the franchise.

That's a very good point actually and a massive oversight on my part. Especially in parts of the West Midlands where buses run reasonably often

I have no idea how they're recompensed if truth be told, I just guessed they would be

 

[Tringonometry]

Not sure that the DfT would look favourably on LM not running a Sunday service ...

 

[radamfi]

Not sure that the DfT would look favourably on LM not running a Sunday service ...

Do DfT care that much about Sunday services? No doubt they would look at the situation pragmatically and come to the conclusion that LM couldn't really do much else given their available funding. DfT certainly aren't going to finance extra drivers or converting the 6 day contracts to 7 day. LM may well lose the franchise at renewal but good past performance is no guarantee of success anyway.

 

[Tringonometry]

Do DfT care that much about Sunday services?

They cared enough to punish LM back in September 2009 when they failed to provide a Sunday service for exactly the same reasons ...

 

[cslusarc]

A few thoughts:

I didn't realize that Sundays were excluded from the regular work week. In the BR days were trains on Sundays as common as they are today? I have a feeling that the volume of Sundays trains was significantly less. There were a series of culturally based legal barriers, such as laws on the prohibition of Sunday shopping, that forced most people to observe a day of rest on Sundays resulting in significantly less consumer demand to travel on Sundays. But times have changed and these legagy labour agreement as obsolete.

I'd like to see trains drivers develop in to a profession that trains themselves before employment like commerical airline pilots. Future trains drivers should take out student loans for their training to pay for most of that £70,000 estimated training cost rather than railways covering that training cost for short-term employees. Then the train drivers can take their skills from one TOC to another when needed.

 

[Tringonometry]

I'd like to see trains drivers develop in to a profession that trains themselves before employment like commerical airline pilots.

An interesting idea. I would have thought that the major sticking point would be finding a 'venue' to train.

The sky is a freely available resource in which to train. Railway track isn't.

 

[riordan]

A few thoughts:

I didn't realize that Sundays were excluded from the regular work week. In the BR days were trains on Sundays as common as they are today? I have a feeling that the volume of Sundays trains was significantly less. There were a series of culturally based legal barriers, such as laws on the prohibition of Sunday shopping, that forced most people to observe a day of rest on Sundays resulting in significantly less consumer demand to travel on Sundays. But times have changed and these legagy labour agreement as obsolete.

I'd like to see trains drivers develop in to a profession that trains themselves before employment like commerical airline pilots. Future trains drivers should take out student loans for their training to pay for most of that £70,000 estimated training cost rather than railways covering that training cost for short-term employees. Then the train drivers can take their skills from one TOC to another when needed.

for most TOC's sunday working remains optional - a condition that pre-dates the last war. this arrangement has,until recently,worked pretty well; it allows drivers to top-up earnings but also allows him/her to stay at home instead and sit down to a roast dinner with the family. until of late there has always been a sufficient no. of volunteers to provide a service. the opt-out is important; a driver can go all week without seeing his/her family. chilling out with the partner/kids on a sunday afternoon is something most people take for granted.

that said, there are arguments in favour of sundays forming part of the working week; in fact, ASLEF is broadly supportive of such a move.

but - as with so much in life - it comes with a price tag. the salary would need to improve significantly, there would be no increase in the working week in terms of hours/days worked. a max. no. of sundays worked per annum (say 20) would need to be agreed, etc,etc,etc.

were LM prepared to meet the above, the sunday issue would be resolved and a guaranteed service nicely in place.

but in an industry with a balance-sheet mentality the idea of 'sundays in the week' is painful. increased salaries, increased compliment of drivers, increased training costs all add up to a nightmare scenario for the TOC's.

a cheaper alternative would be require drivers to commit to working a given no. of sundays per yr on an OT basis but this would meet with stern opposition (would you enjoy being TOLD to work OT on a sunday? feel free to ask ATW drivers for their thoughts).

as for driver self-training: I can't see where you're going with this. in which way would this benefit driver or customer? the driver has been free to move from one TOC to another since privatisation, all of 16 yrs ago.

 

[js47604]

Drivers already take their skills from one TOC/FOC to another.This is why these companies actively poach each others staff,except inthe case of amateurs like LM and the like who can't attract drivers for obvious reasons.

Companies have tried in the past to enforce repayment of training costs when staff leave and this proved unenforceable when challenged.

It's also interesting that eventually airline pilots training is used as a comparison in these arguments which is a totally ridiculous theory,unless we're going to be awarded the same salary and perks as them!

A few thoughts:

I didn't realize that Sundays were excluded from the regular work week. In the BR days were trains on Sundays as common as they are today? I have a feeling that the volume of Sundays trains was significantly less. There were a series of culturally based legal barriers, such as laws on the prohibition of Sunday shopping, that forced most people to observe a day of rest on Sundays resulting in significantly less consumer demand to travel on Sundays. But times have changed and these legagy labour agreement as obsolete.

I'd like to see trains drivers develop in to a profession that trains themselves before employment like commerical airline pilots. Future trains drivers should take out student loans for their training to pay for most of that £70,000 estimated training cost rather than railways covering that training cost for short-term employees. Then the train drivers can take their skills from one TOC to another when needed.

 

[whoosh]

I'd like to see trains drivers develop in to a profession that trains themselves before employment like commerical airline pilots. Future trains drivers should take out student loans for their training to pay for most of that £70,000 estimated training cost rather than railways covering that training cost for short-term employees. Then the train drivers can take their skills from one TOC to another when needed.

Brilliant. As if we aren't all in enough debt in this country with mortgages etc. we should go into even more just to be able to work. No doubt a training company or two will make good business, but then our universities are businesses not institutions anymore it seems.

You want people to drive trains based on how much money their family has, or their credit rating, rather than suitability? You want to put a huge financial barrier in front of people meaning that people from poorer backgrounds won't be able to afford to go into this line of work?

Have a look on the pPrune (Professional Pilot's Rumour Network) website and see what pilots think of P2F (Pay to Fly) schemes. Horror stories of pilots in the US working a second menial job just to get by under the huge mountain of debt they're under, and pilots living in cars miles away from their family because they had to take the first job that came along to start paying back their training costs. That's if they get a job after all that at all!

You want to bring that to the railway? Are you deranged?!


As far as I'm concerned if railway companies need people with the skills and knowledge to drive it's trains, it should recruit people and train them.

 

[Greenback]

An excellent response whoosh!

 

[robmac]

it seems as though its six of one, half a dozen of the the other as to who are the most incompetent, self serving and pig-headed element to running the current situation between LM and the Unions. But I am one of the customers that this inept company and ancient union are inconveniencing week in and week out with your strikes and frankly weak service. Currently my wife and I are paying for a seven day rail pass we are presently getting only 6 days thanks to strikes and having to use the bus on numerous occasions because of engineering, power failures, lack of staff or 101 other lame and pointless excuses and quite frankly I am sick to death of having to pander to overpaid button pushers, inept managers and people who just don’t seem to care on a service that continually stops me getting to and from work..really 40k a year for a job that could be automated out of existence

If your union members don’t like working on Sundays - tough, I would just fire them and be done with it - people are crying out for jobs, no matter what they are, i am sure you could get very good enthusiastic staff for the current amount the drivers and guards are on. LM run a customer driven business and essentially they are shooting yourself in the foot by pandering to striking drivers, we as the general public have little to no sympathy to the cause we all both in the private and public sector are taking cuts, austerity measures and being thankful that we have jobs, really being a train driver or conductor requires little or no qualifications (apart it seems looking unkempt, rude and being able to read the Sun every morning) you should, like I am be thankful to have a job in the current climate and should be thankful that current Union members have a position and steady income as a lot of people are in not such a lucky position.

If Unions are complaining that your quite cushy well paid job package has not got that little extra perk here or there for working a weekend that sorry that’s tough, get with the times we live in a 24/7 world where people want to use services in the evening and (shock) on both Saturdays and Sundays. as I along with a lot of people have to work weekends for no extra pay as par of the course for the job we do and really if you are so upset with the franchise holders of the trains operation then they should quit.. I am sure that Nandos and McDonalds are currently recruiting.

You have signs around your station saying not to be rude to your staff, this I understand but if the reason why I cannot get home or too work is because of your staff being lazy, thoughtless and greedy they deserve all the abuse they get, I (in part) pay your wage and if I feel that you not providing the service you are advertising via posters, timetables and on your websites then I am entitled to complain, get compensation for loss of time and inconvenience on my part and to indeed take by business elsewhere.

I am sure that in a few years time Railways will be a thing of the past – something that misty eyed enthusiasts will look on as a golden age of transport but if like me, and of course the people making the Dispatches documentary last night will attain the railway and those who work for it are better off on the scrapheap of history, resigned to the fact that a service that charges through the nose for the oh so very poorest or service deserves to be put down and forgotten about.

 

[SS4]

it seems as though its six of one, half a dozen of the the other as to who are the most incompetent, self serving and pig-headed element to running the current situation between LM and the Unions. But I am one of the customers that this inept company and ancient union are inconveniencing week in and week out with your strikes and frankly weak service.

Weak service no, fragile service perhaps yet often it's out of London Midland's control - it just happens to be on their patch

lame and pointless excuses

That's your opinion, not fact. Plus of course pointless is the wrong word to use, would you prefer to not be told and wait at the station all afternoon? LM lose money when lines are shut, it would be pointless to close it without good reason.

and quite frankly I am sick to death of having to pander to overpaid button pushers, inept managers and people who just don’t seem to care on a service that continually stops me getting to and from work..really 40k a year for a job that could be automated out of existence

So why hasn't it been? If it's as easy as you say it is then surely it would have been done a long time ago.

If your union members don’t like working on Sundays - tough, I would just fire them and be done with it - people are crying out for jobs, no matter what they are, i am sure you could get very good enthusiastic staff for the current amount the drivers and guards are on.

How would you feel if you were sacked for not working on your contracted day off? Not to mention it's illegal to do so.

LM run a customer driven business and essentially they are shooting yourself in the foot by pandering to striking drivers, we as the general public have little to no sympathy to the cause we all both in the private and public sector are taking cuts, austerity measures and being thankful that we have jobs, really being a train driver or conductor requires little or no qualifications (apart it seems looking unkempt, rude and being able to read the Sun every morning)

Do you work for London Midland/Are you related to Thatcher? Your anti-union poison knows no bounds. For the record the poor are in the proverbial **** much more than the rich. By the look of your post you read the Daily Mail every morning, a "news"paper undeserving of the name even more than the Sun. I don't work for the railways so I don't know what qualifications are needed but I'm sure someone else can

you should, like I am be thankful to have a job in the current climate and should be thankful that current Union members have a position and steady income as a lot of people are in not such a lucky position.

The current climate cannot be used as an excuse for ideological cuts. In the second half of 2010 London Midland turned a profit link so there is no need to make such cuts beyond profiteering and ideology

If Unions are complaining that your quite cushy well paid job package has not got that little extra perk here or there for working a weekend that sorry that’s tough, get with the times we live in a 24/7 world where people want to use services in the evening and (shock) on both Saturdays and Sundays. as I along with a lot of people have to work weekends for no extra pay as par of the course for the job we do and really if you are so upset with the franchise holders of the trains operation then they should quit.. I am sure that Nandos and McDonalds are currently recruiting.

Again, why should they work on a contracted day off without sufficient remuneration? LM could hire more staff with contracted weekends but they won't because they're fine with holding the public to ransom and running a "special timetable" in an attempt to avoid DfT intervention.

You have signs around your station saying not to be rude to your staff, this I understand but if the reason why I cannot get home or too work is because of your staff being lazy, thoughtless and greedy they deserve all the abuse they get,

No they don't. What's more it's an ASLEF dispute, staff in other unions (such as RMT) are not partaking. It just happens a train can't go anywhere without a driver.

I (in part) pay your wage and if I feel that you not providing the service you are advertising via posters, timetables and on your websites then I am entitled to complain, get compensation for loss of time and inconvenience on my part and to indeed take by business elsewhere.

Where does it say it in their advertising material?

I am sure that in a few years time Railways will be a thing of the past – something that misty eyed enthusiasts will look on as a golden age of transport but if like me, and of course the people making the Dispatches documentary last night will attain the railway and those who work for it are better off on the scrapheap of history, resigned to the fact that a service that charges through the nose for the oh so very poorest or service deserves to be put down and forgotten about.

Increasing passenger numbers would disagree. Railways have been around for a long time, sure they could use an upgrade yet the disruption and economy rules it out.
Balanced people know full well that the Dispatches documentary on Monday (today is Friday, someone lucky enough to be in a job should be au fait with the days of the week)

The train is here to stay and if you choose not to use it I think they might just breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[Tringonometry]

..really 40k a year for a job that could be automated out of existence

This was the point where I realised that your intellect was insufficiently challenging to be worth engaging with. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I shall now sack myself and get some Eastern Europeans in!

PPS I'm sure any one of our drivers would love to talk this over with you. Then perhaps you won't think us lazy and greedy. Is Bletchley at 0420 any day next week convenient for you?

 

[notadriver]

Robmac is probably a Troll. I think newcomers to the forum should be restricted in some way so we can be sure of who they really are.