London Midland/Northern EMU changes speculation

[Kristofferson]

Ugh, we're getting 319s? Really? :cry:

 

[northwichcat]

Ugh, we're getting 319s? Really? :cry:

They are just like a slightly older version of a 321. It's not they are replacing modern trains with 319s or are replacing trains with 2+2 seating and tables with trains with 3+2 seating.

 

[CC 72100]

It's not they are replacing modern trains with 319s or are replacing trains with 2+2 seating and tables with trains with 3+2 seating.

Not a thinly-veiled reference to the 319 cascade to Northern there at all! :roll:

 

[cjmillsnun]

Ugh, we're getting 319s? Really? :cry:

Apart from the front end, the 319 is pretty much the same as the dusty.

If they are appropriately refreshed/refurbed to a high standard, then why moan?

 

[CC 72100]

Apart from the front end, the 319 is pretty much the same as the dusty.

If they are appropriately refreshed/refurbed to a high standard, then why moan?

Indeed - they're not that different at all, same door layout, same seating layout. While the condition that they come to LM in could be a concern, I get the impression that the current 321s aren't exactly rolling palaces either, in fact don't they retain NSE seat moquette?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Apart from the front end, the 319 is pretty much the same as the dusty....

Bit of polyfilla and no-one will notice......

 

[Silverlinky]

455/457/460 all "awaiting transfer" to LM

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So possibly one or two 319s in LM livery then...!?? har har

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed - they're not that different at all, same door layout, same seating layout. While the condition that they come to LM in could be a concern, I get the impression that the current 321s aren't exactly rolling palaces either, in fact don't they retain NSE seat moquette?

They did when I was last down in London a few months ago, as well as a lot of references to Silverlink still evident on some of them, as well as very out of date maps still in use. The LM 321s in general are indeed in rough shape, but by God they're good fun to travel on in the right coach

 

[northwichcat]

Not a thinly-veiled reference to the 319 cascade to Northern there at all! :roll:

It could be a lot more relevant to LM more immediately though.

At the moment TPE will have nothing to run what's currently the 6 car 185 working on Scottish services on Fridays from May. Apparently the rumour of a class 87 hauled train on Fridays only has been confirmed as something that won't happen by TPE but no solution has been confirmed.

So the options are:
1. Short form a North TPE service on Friday evenings so 2 x 6 car 185 diagrams become 2 x 3 car 350 diagrams.
2. Run a 8 car 350 diagram and a 6 car 185 diagram as 2 x 4 car 350 diagrams.
3. Secure additional carriages from somewhere - who else has Desiros which could be loaned to TPE?

 

[cjmillsnun]

It could be a lot more relevant to LM more immediately though.

At the moment TPE will have nothing to run what's currently the 6 car 185 working on Scottish services on Fridays from May. Apparently the rumour of a class 87 hauled train on Fridays only has been confirmed as something that won't happen by TPE but no solution has been confirmed.

So the options are:
1. Short form a North TPE service on Friday evenings so 2 x 6 car 185 diagrams become 2 x 3 car 350 diagrams.
2. Run a 8 car 350 diagram and a 6 car 185 diagram as 2 x 4 car 350 diagrams.
3. Secure additional carriages from somewhere - who else has Desiros which could be loaned to TPE?

Could this be where the 360s from Heathrow Connect will end up? (TPE)

 

[RobShipway]

Could this be where the 360s from Heathrow Connect will end up?

The Heathrow 360s will not be due until May 2017 at the earliest and even then will probably still continue to be used until all Crossrail through routes etc... having been started.

 

[northwichcat]

Could this be where the 360s from Heathrow Connect will end up? (TPE)

Unlikely. TPE need a short term solution not a solution in a few years time when they'll likely be wanting to acquire a large consistent EMU fleet.

 

[Qwerty133]

Unlikely. TPE need a short term solution not a solution in a few years time when they'll likely be wanting to acquire a large consistent EMU fleet.

so a 350/2 would be acceptable to TPE?

 

[Class 170101]

Would have to be a Class 350/1 or Class 350/3 for potential 110mph running.

 

[northwichcat]

so a 350/2 would be acceptable to TPE?

TPE ideally would need 2 x 350s in the short term as there's nothing to run the Friday diagram which is currently a 6 car 185. (With 350s having 20m carriages they aren't that much longer than 185s)

As we're talking about the 16:00 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh service (3 hours 40 in length with no faster alternative) I think it needs to have 2+2 seating

Based on the expected franchise requirements (the ITT still hasn't been issued) a fleet for the next franchise would need to be large enough to cover the following once Manchester-York is electrified:
- 2 trains every 3 hours between Manchester Airport and Edinburgh (Intercity)
- 1 train every 3 hours between Manchester Airport and Glasgow (Intercity)
- A Liverpool portion on alternative Scottish services
- Half-hourly Liverpool to Newcastle service (Intercity)
- Half-hourly Manchester Airport to York service (Intercity)
- Half-hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Hull service (Regional semi-fast)

That would be 40ish diagrams by my reckoning then some services may need to be doubled especially the Scottish ones which don't involve Liverpool portions, so I reckon 50ish electric units will be required.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I remember - used to be a Rugby-Brighton service, right??

It was actually a Rugby to Gatwick Airport service. Sorry to be a pedant.

So possibly one or two 319s in LM livery then...!?? har har

Send the Southern 319s up. That'll throw a curveball to anyone going on the the Southern Croydon services.

 

[Class 170101]

Would it be a possibility that additional Class 319's could move from Thameslink to London Midland beyond the seven required to replace Class 321s therefore releasing additional Class 350s to TPE a possibility?

 

[RobShipway]

It was actually a Rugby to Gatwick Airport service. Sorry to be a pedant.


Send the Southern 319s up. That'll throw a curveball to anyone going on the the Southern Croydon services.

I think you will find it was originally Brighton to Milton Keynes service before it got changed to be Gatwick Rugby and then as it is now the service from East Croydon to Milton Keynes.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I think you will find it was originally Brighton to Milton Keynes service before it got changed to be Gatwick Rugby and then as it is now the service from East Croydon to Milton Keynes.

It never actually ran though.

 

[RobShipway]

It never actually ran though.

If you mean Brighton to Milton Keynes, it did run as I used a few times whilst leaving in the area needing to get to Milton Keynes. Admittedly though, it was only for a short time before the route got cut back so that the paths could be used for extra Brighton - London trains.

 

[Aictos]

It could be a lot more relevant to LM more immediately though.

At the moment TPE will have nothing to run what's currently the 6 car 185 working on Scottish services on Fridays from May. Apparently the rumour of a class 87 hauled train on Fridays only has been confirmed as something that won't happen by TPE but no solution has been confirmed.

So the options are:
1. Short form a North TPE service on Friday evenings so 2 x 6 car 185 diagrams become 2 x 3 car 350 diagrams.
2. Run a 8 car 350 diagram and a 6 car 185 diagram as 2 x 4 car 350 diagrams.
3. Secure additional carriages from somewhere - who else has Desiros which could be loaned to TPE?

3 car Class 350s?

 

[Class377/5]

If you mean Brighton to Milton Keynes, it did run as I used a few times whilst leaving in the area needing to get to Milton Keynes. Admittedly though, it was only for a short time before the route got cut back so that the paths could be used for extra Brighton - London trains.

It was never Milton Keynes to Brighton. Its been Brighton to Watford and Croydon to Milton Keynes.

The path from the Brighton section got used on a 3rd Brighton to Victoria service as a direct replacement so the WCML service was chopped to end at Croydon at the same timetable change.

 

[childwallblues]

The lease expires on the GN 321s in September and the LM 321s next April. Scotrail agreed a deal to take on 7 x 321s from September. Govia have worked a deal for 7 x 319s to go to LM, so the GN 321s can stay where they are and there won't be issues with inconsistent fleets or securing EMUs for the LM Direct Award.

Many thanks. I assume that the seven for LM will be refreshed before they are sent to LM?

 

[87015]

It never actually ran though.

At least some trains were Rugby-Brighton for a while. I had:

319007 0920 Rugby-Gatwick 23/02/01 (to show it wasn't all of them!)
319009 1556 Brighton-Rugby 23/02/01
319007 1905 Rugby-Brighton 23/06/01
319001 1756 Brighton-Rugby 27/04/02

 

[Wolfie]

Would it be a possibility that additional Class 319's could move from Thameslink to London Midland beyond the seven required to replace Class 321s therefore releasing additional Class 350s to TPE a possibility?

It might be a possibility. Whether LM would agree is a whole different matter... 319s for 321s which are only used in the peak is one thing, 319s for 350s which are heavily used is another...

 

[Wolfie]

The lease expires on the GN 321s in September and the LM 321s next April. Scotrail agreed a deal to take on 7 x 321s from September. Govia have worked a deal for 7 x 319s to go to LM, so the GN 321s can stay where they are and there won't be issues with inconsistent fleets or securing EMUs for the LM Direct Award.

While the GN 321s are rough they are still, scarily, better than the LM ones...that deal means Scotrail get the roughest 321s (original NSE seat covers and all) out there to refurbish...

Given the effort that Govia has put into the deal I assume that it has nailed down extended leases for the GN 321s now...

 

[Peter Sarf]

It might be a possibility. Whether LM would agree is a whole different matter... 319s for 321s which are only used in the peak is one thing, 319s for 350s which are heavily used is another...

I suppose its a possibility that London Midland would just order a dozen or so more 350s. That is assuming they can as I suspect Siemens will want to sell them something newer and different ?.

My hope is that there will be a surplus of older EMUs ready to leap into action as lots of newly electrified lines come on stream :roll:.

 

[Wolfie]

I suppose its a possibility that London Midland would just order a dozen or so more 350s. That is assuming they can as I suspect Siemens will want to sell them something newer and different ?.

My hope is that there will be a surplus of older EMUs ready to leap into action as lots of newly electrified lines come on stream :roll:.

My bold

As has been said on here many times, they can't! Far more likely is for the TPE 350s to go to LM when TPE gets a new fleet, thus freeing up 319s and possibly the odd 323...

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose its a possibility that London Midland would just order a dozen or so more 350s. That is assuming they can as I suspect Siemens will want to sell them something newer and different ?.

My hope is that there will be a surplus of older EMUs ready to leap into action as lots of newly electrified lines come on stream :roll:.

Siemens were reluctant to deliver 350/3s and 350/4s and apparently they told LM if they wanted any more 350s add them to that order as next time 350s won't be an option.