London Midland Fare

[Neilandrewhall]

This Tuesday which is the 25/01/2011 I want to travel from Hornchurch to Northampton, I have a Disabled person’s railcard, and I plan to use my freedom pass to Euston, from where I require a ticket to Northampton. I want to be at Northampton by 21:00 and depart 14:00 the Next Day.

Can anyone tell me if the Super off Peak Return, priced at £11.50 to Rugby is suitable for me, can I get off short at Northampton with this ticket?

Neil

 

[island]

I can't find a super off-peak return for that flow (but I don't have Avantix available at the moment as I'm not at home, so I'm not saying it doesn't exist). But there are still advance tickets on sale for that journey for as little as £3.95 each way if you can be a little more flexible with the timing (out at 2046 tomorrow arrive 2150, return on a range of trains), and even first class advances on some evening trains outbound for just £10.55.

In the event you do buy a ticket to Rugby, there is no problem finishing short on most walk-up tickets.

 

[tony_mac]

The restriction text says no break of journey is allowed.

Whether that complies with the conditions of carriage is debatable ("the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications")
Their website does say "no break of journey" for advance tickets, but does not say the same for super off-peak tickets.

 

[island]

To be clear, the advance tickets I was referring to were from Euston to Northampton, the journey that the OP wanted to make.

 

[Pumbaa]

Super off-peak tickets are no BoJ, and staff do know this. I have been caught at New St a few times now, as it seems people from the NW to Birmingham now use off-peak and super off-peak tickets and start/stop short at New Street.

Northampton will be gated at that time and the ticket will not work in the barriers. To get round this, buy the super off-peak return Rugby - London and buy a Long Buckby-Northampton return also. Use these to get through the barrier.

 

[bengolding]

Super off-peak tickets are no BoJ, and staff do know this. I have been caught at New St a few times now, as it seems people from the NW to Birmingham now use off-peak and super off-peak tickets and start/stop short at New Street.

What happened when you were caught? Were you excessed to the Off Peak return fare which does allow a BoJ?

I'm surprised that LM aren't consistent with other TOCs by not allowing BoJ on the reutrn portion of Super Off Peak returns, but they definitely are ridiculously cheap.

Going slightly OT, LM should really increase ticket checks on the southern leg. Recently did Watford-Nuneaton in First Class on a weekday and only check was southbound before Northampton.

 

[Pumbaa]

What happened when you were caught? Were you excessed to the Off Peak return fare which does allow a BoJ?

I'm surprised that LM aren't consistent with other TOCs by not allowing BoJ on the reutrn portion of Super Off Peak returns, but they definitely are ridiculously cheap.

Going slightly OT, LM should really increase ticket checks on the southern leg. Recently did Watford-Nuneaton in First Class on a weekday and only check was southbound before Northampton.

Both times talked out of it, going to the other side of the barrier to travel centre etc. They really should increase checks, as most of the stations are completely barriered south of Northampton, they just don't both. Most guards are good on the Trent Valley workings, though there is a noticeable difference between the Northampton and Crewe based Guards.

 

[tony_mac]

London Midland have had advice on their website to buy a ticket for a further station (on an off-peak ticket).

If you're travelling to Runcorn, simply buy a ticket to Liverpool

As they don't advertise this 'no break of journey' rule anywhere, (as the nrcoc says) who knows what is actually correct?

http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/tickets-and-fares/off-peak-tickets/

 

[Broken Viking]

Talking of LM fares (And seeing above a new no BoJ restriction) can I just check that my intended use of my next LM ticket will be allowed? I would normally look this up myself on Avantix, but the fares structure seems to have changed a lot and I havn't been able to get the new manual in yet!

Anyway, here's what I'm planning to do on an LM only (Super?) Off-peak Rtn (£16.50 with a Y-P Railcard):

• Outward journey: EUS -> LIV on 15th Apr (If I miss the 13:33 VT service ex EUS that I have an Advance booking on),
• Return journey A: LIV -> TAM, for BoJ lasting about three weeks via new ticket to DBY.
• Return journey B: TAM -> EUS, once above BoJ has been completed.

Some may recall that I used my ticket in this manner last year, and I plan to do the same again for the same reasons. The ticket that I saw on the LM website earlier was priced at £16.50 for a return (Within one month) EUS -> LIV with a Y-P, but I can't recall/wasn't informed as to whether it was a standard OPR or a super OPR.

If someone could look up that fare on the latest NFM and tell me whether or not I can still make this intended three week split on my return portion, then I would be most greatful.
Or even better: If ye happen to have a copy of the latest NFM knocking around, please could ye send it to me via some means? Someone sent me a link a month ago, but AToC have been poking their fingers in places they have no right to, and thus the link's no longer valid. :'-(

 

[bengolding]

The ticket that I saw on the LM website earlier was priced at £16.50 for a return (Within one month) EUS -> LIV with a Y-P, but I can't recall/wasn't informed as to whether it was a standard OPR or a super OPR:'-(

I've checked and it is the Super Off Peak return Euston-Liverpool at £16.15 with your discount *London Midland only*. My NFM says no BoJ on either leg. But as others have pointed out, this isn't publicised on the London Midland website and it seems that even they have advised customers to buy this ticket but not adhere to this BoJ rule. The wording says "Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities". So my interpretation of this is so long as you don't leave the station you can stop at any intermediate station to use its facilities.

 

[yorkie]

I don't believe it's enforceable and you are permitted beyond the barrier to use station facilities (and - where permitted by the Routeing Guide - to walk to Moor St/Snow Hill). I wouldn't hesitate to use such a ticket. The worst they can attempt to do is excess, but if you say you are using station facilities, they have to let you through. Are they going to follow you? If they did (which I very much doubt) I'd just walk in and out of various shops within the station premises and then report the matter to the police for harassment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't recall/wasn't informed as to whether it was a standard OPR or a super OPR.

It's just an "OPR". There is no such thing as a Standard or Super one.

OPR = Super Off Peak Return.

A 'Standard' Return (SDR or SOR) were renamed Anytime in 2008.

 

[RJ]

What's wrong with buying a ticket/combination of tickets that covers your journey and allows *all priviliges one requires?* If a "cheap" ticket/combination of tickets don't cover all requirements then it's not valid for all your journey and should not be purchased.

Knowingly buying a ticket that doesn't allow break of journey, refusing to pay an excess to the correct ticket and lying (or exploiting a likely chance of not being caught) in order to circumvent a restriction doesn't sound like the actions of someone intending to pay a correct fare to me.
If you're going to find ways to save money, then do it legitimately! To save a having to read a predictable response, I'm advising against deception and not one's right to use station facilities.

I can't comment on the terms of London Midland's OPR tickets but it's probably worth confirming the restriction via the info button on a TVM, with a ticket office clerk, or online when buying the ticket. I believe the online booking engine shows the relevant restriction information?

 

[tony_mac]

I believe the online booking engine shows the relevant restriction information?

No, it doesn't, that's the point!
I can check a TVM, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention it, and it's never been mentioned to me by a ticket clerk.

On some websites (e.g. London Midland) it just tells you to ring them up and ask - which isn't really making it clear in their publications - which is what the coc requires.

but on others it may say something else entirely;
e.g. here is what FGW etc. say about a super off-peak return...

You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

I am not too keen on using deception myself - but if the alternative is being wrongly overcharged and dealing with the ensuing hassle, perhaps it's legitimate?


I agree with only buying correct tickets - but equally, I believe that as the rail companies make the rules, then that allows consumers to interpret them to their advantage.
If London Midland wanted to make it clear that BOJ is not allowed, it would take someone 10 minutes to change their website. If they have chosen not to do that, then I think that is their own fault!
(and they have previously advised breaking journeys, both on their website and on here!)

 

[yorkie]

The idea that there is a "correct fare" is ludicrous (and this isn't a dig at you, RJ, I know you are just quoting the TOCs), if the "correct fare" from Liverpool to London via Birmingham is £16 for a walk-on ticket, then there is no way I would pay more to go to Birmingham, and I believe that the rules that prevent it do not actually apply to these tickets as it is not made clear or made public and LM publicly encourage people to break this invisible rule. It is also questionable whether the concept of dis-allowing break of journey merely on the basis of a restriction code is enforceable and it is further questionable whether cutting short could be prevented on this basis. I suspect it will never be tested in court!

Note that my argument above is specifically for walk on tickets, not Advance tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On some websites (e.g. London Midland) it just tells you to ring them up and ask - which isn't really making it clear in their publications - which is what the coc requires.

Yes, and the ridiculous thing is if someone says "Yes you can stop short" (LM officially advertise starting short as valid, and that comes under the same terms as stopping short!) and then you did it and used that as a defence, we all know that TOCs often refuse to honour verbal easements/agreements given by staff and will excess because the member of staff who gave the original advice was "wrong". Therefore I refuse to entertain this suggestion to call them as an acceptable condition or in any way binding on the customer.

I have no moral issues with finishing/starting short on a walk-on ticket whatsoever, and I believe it is not only morally right but an interpretation of the terms in accordance with consumer laws means that it appears to me to be legally right (IANAL, this is not legal advice).

Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083

Written contracts
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

 

[MKB]

Since Advance tickets are advertised as not allowing break of journey, stopping short and starting late, I've always inferred from that that these are three separate activities.

Therefore, any regulations on any ticket type covering break of journey tell you nothing about whether you can stop short or start late. Unless specifically forbidden in written publicly-available contractual terms, I really don't see how a TOC could enforce stopping short or starting late.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have the ticket conditions for London-Midland-only return fares from Nuneaton to Liverpool changed in NFM07 or NFM08? The latest I have is NFM06 and the break-of-journey restrictions on the Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak are ambiguous.

The OPR has restriction LK which firstly states in text that BOJ is not allowed, then says that it is against ticket type OPR, and then has further text saying it is allowed.

The SVR has restriction SK which disallows BOJ in the text but then fails to list SVR as a ticket type covered.

 

[Broken Viking]

I sent London Midland themselves an e-mail yesterday asking them to clarify my exact position with regards to my intended journey. I havn't checked my e-mail yet today, but if I get a response from them I'll edit out my personal details and mail references, and post it here for everyone else to digest.