London Midland Cl150s

[87019Chris]

I was reading todays railways and it mentioned that Nothern would be recieving some more Class 150s (we never get new stuff )and i was wondering how many northern will get from london midland and/or london overground as i only need one northern 150 its 150141 and then how many i might need as i have some of the london midland ones but none of the london overground ones or are they just going to FGW

cheers in advance
Chris

 

[sprinterguy]

Right, let's see if I can get all the various swings and roundabouts correct:

First Great Western are getting the 6 London Overground class 150s, as well as 9 London Midland 150s.

Northern are receiving 8 class 150s from London Midland, as well as the 7 class 142s that are on loan to FGW at the moment. Northern are then losing 4 class 156s to EMT, and the three 180s are probably going elsewhere as well.

So Northern aren't receiving any of the London Overground 150s, they're all going to FGW.

 

[350401]

As far as I can see, Northern make a limited gain from the latest round of stock reallocation. The 7x142's basically replace the 3x180's - 14 15m coaches replace 15 23m coaches. Great. The only upside is the greater operational flexibility 7x142's give, and that 5 coaches won't be sat out of use at all time, as is the case at the moment. Then 4x150's directly replace the 4x156's NT loose to EMT. The other 4x150's are Northerns net gain. Its a start I guess.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's got to be better than continued stangnation with the current number of units available, and the threat that the 180s could go elsewhere at any time. Better than nothing, and as you say Brantastic, the 7 142s will be more flexible for diagramming than 3 180s.

The bit of the London Midland cascade that is puzzling me is that the 150 numbers don't seem to add up: I've worked it out thus:

Currently, London Midland have 14 class "150/3" units (Not a real designation, but that's what I'm using to denote the three carriage 150/1 plus half a 150/2 sets).
These break down into 14 class 150/1s, and 7 150/2s. So that's 42 individual carriages.

Plus, they also have 10 two-car 150/1s, and 2 two-car 150/2s. Plus the two three carriage 150/0 prototypes. That's a further 30 individual carriages.

So in total London Midland have 72 class 150 vehicles, right?

Now then; London Midland are reported to want to retain around 26 class 150 vehicles (13 two carriage units). Northern are getting 8 150s from LM, and FGW are getting 9. So that's a total of 26+16+18 vehicles. That only comes to 60.

What has happened to the remaining twelve carriages?

The way the cascade has been reported, it suggests that it is taking place based on the 150s being cascaded as two car units, as opposed to the units going as three-car hybrids. So I'm slightly perplexed. Surely there is scope for more units to be freed up than are being, even if London Midland do retain some vehicles?

 

[350401]

There is definitely a discrepancy in the numbers yes. Being an optimist, I'm hoping that the 8x150's is just the initial allocation, and these unallocated 12 coaches (6x150) will come to Northern once the 172 production line gets into full swing and the units are proved reliable. The cynic in me says that London Midland will try and keep these additional units or that FGW will get them.

As for the 7x142's, yes the silver lining is that they will be able to be used anywhere, and that they are in good condition and newly refurbished. Though I'm unsure how long they will remain in that condition for...it hasn't taken long for Northerns refurbishment of the 142's to be undone by various "passengers".

 

[northwichcat]

The 'gain' from 8x150s replacing 4x156s will apparently see extra capacity on both peak time Manchester-Liverpool and Hope Valley stoppers operated by Northern as well as more 4 carriage trains on Liverpool-Nottingham.

it hasn't taken long for Northerns refurbishment of the 142's to be undone by various "passengers".

Well it would certainly have helped had the seats been fitted back together properly after refurbishment. The seats on the old FNW 150s and 156s are much less secure as a direct result of refurbishment.

 

[sprinterguy]

I am also crossing my fingers that the remaining 6 unaccounted for 150s will be released to Northern. Or at the very least, that the other rumour that London Midland will release it's ten 153s in exchange for retaining a few 150s will come true. I can only hope that once/if the 172s bed down reliably with LM, that the remaining 150 vehicles will be released from LM: It would be a real boost to the rest of the network if ALL of London Midlands' 150s could go forth to other areas.

I've always felt that the Northern 142s fare better than their sisters in the Welsh valleys: I remember when the former Welsh Valley Lines 142s arrived in the north east in exchange for a similar number of then north east 142s in 2002: The former Welsh units were absolutely god awful, even in comparison to the "nice" 142s the north east had just lost to Wales! I occasionally wonder if the whole point of that swap was to avoid the Welsh units dropping to bits altogether and sending some fresh, better quality, units their way to wreck...

 

[northwichcat]

Surely there is scope for more units to be freed up than are being, even if London Midland do retain some vehicles?

Isn't the assumption that LM want to keep 10x150s and cascade the 153s, in which case there are at least 12 vehicles left unallocated.

 

[sprinterguy]

Isn't the assumption that LM want to keep 10x150s and cascade the 153s, in which case there are at least 12 vehicles left unallocated.

Just mentioned the 153 bit of the deal above Yeah, there are 12 mystery vehicles left floating about as I see it...

 

[northwichcat]

I remember when the former Welsh Valley Lines 142s arrived in the north east in exchange for a similar number of then north east 142s in 2002: The former Welsh units were absolutely god awful, even in comparison to the "nice" 142s the north east had just lost to Wales! I occasionally wonder if the whole point of that swap was to avoid the Welsh units dropping to bits altogether and sending some fresh, better quality, units their way to wreck...

When the 150s from Cardiff that went to ATN they retained everything from BR days including the BR posters on board, which remained in place even after Northern moved the 150s from the ATN area to Manchester.

 

[Donny Dave]

The cynic in me thinks that Northern will fiddle around with their stock diagrams so all local services from Sheffield will go over to Pacers, with the odd 15x that does appear going to Leeds or Manchester for their local services.

However, with a few extra units, they can fiddle the diagrams a little bit more and change some of them.

For example. Scunthorpe - Lincoln via Sheffield. This could terminate at Sheffield, and then work back to Scunthorpe, in effect creating a self contained diagram, with the Manchester - Sheffield and Sheffield - Lincoln stoppers combined to create a new through service (still calling at all stations though).

Yes, it will require a minor recast of the timetable, for instance trains from Lincoln depart 8 minutes earlier, so they can then follow the EMT service to Manchester from Sheffield. Unfortunately, I can't see a different path for the stopper from Mancherst to Sheffield over the Hope Valley, so the service would have a 50 min lay over at Lincoln.

Times would be something like.

Lincoln dep. xx19
Sheffield arr. xx41 dep. xx45
Manchester arr. xx03

The reverse journey would be something like.

Manchester dep. xx45
Sheffield arr. xx03 dep. xx07
Lincoln arr. xx29

 

[northwichcat]

The cynic in me thinks that Northern will fiddle around with their stock diagrams so all local services from Sheffield will go over to Pacers, with the odd 15x that does appear going to Leeds or Manchester for their local services.

The routes that see the extra seats won't necessarily see more 150s. Manchester Airport-Southport has seen an overall increase in capacity at peak times which has been achieved by 2x142s replacing 150s, so they actually see more Pacers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

hope none are left off lease. The only people i see gaining greatly out of this are LM as if they are keeping 10 units they have made a net gain of 9 ( am i right in thinking they getting 1 less 172 than they have of 150's?)
FGW have are having to send back ATW 150's they loaned and the northern 142's as they recieve 150's from LO and LM. so there net gain isn't fantastic, ATW will do well as they get more 150's back without loss. Anyone know what is happeneing to FGW 143's?

I'm not good at paragraphs im not sure ive made sense here

 

[northwichcat]

Taking into account that some 150/2s have been spilt and put in the middle of a 150/1 then yes it's effectively one unit loss. However, providing any 172 reliability problems are sorted before LM lose the 150s the newer units should be more reliable and should need less time being maintained, meaning they'll be no need for any service to be cut or lose carriages.

However, saying that the Chase line could see a reduction in service due to the high costs involved in subsiding the service, but this has been announced since the 172 order was placed.

 

[tbtc]

...and, as I like to point out, as part of the agreement to get the FGW142s (etc), Northern gave up their rights to "their" 158s which have been on loan at Scotrail...

Bit confusing this, as nobody seems to be *that* much better off (you could argue that ATW come out best)!

Seven 142s is less capacity than three 180s. One 180 was "spare", so only two used at a time. But, bear in mind that not all seven 142s will be used (maintenance etc). Plus, the lack of corridor connections means Pacers are poor for working in multiple.

My "solution" for Northern would be to put all units that need capacity as Sprinters, so double up most 150/ 155/ 156/ 158s (or turn them into three car units). Keep Pacers on routes where capacity isn't needed, to avoid doubling them up.

I can't blame LM for wanting to keep some Sprinters (as well as getting 172s), but I think Northern need capacity more (trying not to be biased!).

 

[MCR247]

But LM are keeping sprinters, which are replacing the 153s, which could go to Northern? Just saying what I heard about the first bit but just guessing about the last bit

 

[northwichcat]

...and, as I like to point out, as part of the agreement to get the FGW142s (etc), Northern gave up their rights to "their" 158s which have been on loan at Scotrail...

And had Scotrail not taken the 158s it would have meant Northern wouldn't have been desperate to get the 180s as they would have had enough stock to run the additional Manchester-Preston service, albeit overcrowded stock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But LM are keeping sprinters, which are replacing the 153s, which could go to Northern? Just saying what I heard about the first bit but just guessing about the last bit

How realistic would it be for Northern to reform the 153s to 155s or to permanently attach them to the existing 155s without risking regular leaking through the corridor connectors?

 

[387star]

Would be a crying shame if TPE don't get the 5 off lease or soon to become off lease 180s for the Manchester-Glasgows!!

 

[158722]

The bit of the London Midland cascade that is puzzling me is that the 150 numbers don't seem to add up: I've worked it out thus:

Currently, London Midland have 14 class "150/3" units (Not a real designation, but that's what I'm using to denote the three carriage 150/1 plus half a 150/2 sets).
These break down into 14 class 150/1s, and 7 150/2s. So that's 42 individual carriages.

Plus, they also have 10 two-car 150/1s, and 2 two-car 150/2s. Plus the two three carriage 150/0 prototypes. That's a further 30 individual carriages.

So in total London Midland have 72 class 150 vehicles, right?

Now then; London Midland are reported to want to retain around 26 class 150 vehicles (13 two carriage units). Northern are getting 8 150s from LM, and FGW are getting 9. So that's a total of 26+16+18 vehicles. That only comes to 60.

What has happened to the remaining twelve carriages?

The way the cascade has been reported, it suggests that it is taking place based on the 150s being cascaded as two car units, as opposed to the units going as three-car hybrids. So I'm slightly perplexed. Surely there is scope for more units to be freed up than are being, even if London Midland do retain some vehicles?

I thought LM were quoted as wanting to retain 10 150s, which would be logically 3-car units to replace the 153/170 combos largely used on the Rugeley route plus a few Herefords or whatever. This would displace all bar say 4 153s (Coventry shuttle plus Bedford?) so thats 6 153 away to someone, plus wasn't there some idea that LM would loose the centre cars from their 170/6s to AXC? Presumably the remaining 2-car 170/5 and 6s would be paired up on busier Shrewsbury/Hereford turns? Either way, I agree with comments that things don't add up yet (based on what has been said) and there seems to be a missing 10-15 vehicles however the numbers are shuffled around.

 

[87019Chris]

...and, as I like to point out, as part of the agreement to get the FGW142s (etc), Northern gave up their rights to "their" 158s which have been on loan at Scotrail...

so would the 158s return to northern or stay in scotland

 

[MCR247]

Stay in Scotland I think

 

[87019Chris]

that is a shame that they could be staying up there but i hope they dont. The london midland units will they be sending them in numerical order to FGW and Northern for example the last 9 LM have going to FGW and the earlier 8 to northern or is it just as random numbers that every ones getting and if so are the numbers all ready designated?? becuase i would like to get my book readyfor this.
cheers in advance
chris

 

[tbtc]

so would the 158s return to northern or stay in scotland

They are staying in Scotland.

From December, ScotRail will need fewer DMUs when the Bathgate line becomes EMU (currently DMUs run Edinburgh - Bathgate, but EMUs will run Edinburgh - Bathgate - Airdrie - Glasgow - Beyond), so presumably not need so many 158s

Northern currently run Pacers/ 156s on routes that could maybe justify a 158 (Manchester Airport - Liverpool, Liverpool - Blackpool etc), whilst ScotRail are using 158s on routes that could maybe justify a Pacer/ 156 (e.g. the North Highland routes where there are low "top" speeds, or urban routes with frequent stops)

 

[northwichcat]

Northern currently run Pacers/ 156s on routes that could maybe justify a 158 (Manchester Airport - Liverpool, Liverpool - Blackpool etc), whilst ScotRail are using 158s on routes that could maybe justify a Pacer/ 156 (e.g. the North Highland routes where there are low "top" speeds, or urban routes with frequent stops)

It'd also be useful for Northern to have some 158s available for their 'South Manchester' group as frequently 142s fill in for shortages of 323s and 142s can't keep to 323 timings.

When the 158s aren't needed to fill in for 323s they could be put on Chester to Manchester via Altrincham, which is a route FNW used 158s on. You may think 158s aren't suitable for a 80 minute stopping service but there are some long gaps between stations with high line speeds and a lot of the smaller stations get very few passengers (some are request only) meaning the door arrangement is less of an issue than on a Manchester-Blackpool service.

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought LM were quoted as wanting to retain 10 150s, which would be logically 3-car units to replace the 153/170 combos largely used on the Rugeley route plus a few Herefords or whatever. This would displace all bar say 4 153s (Coventry shuttle plus Bedford?) so thats 6 153 away to someone, plus wasn't there some idea that LM would loose the centre cars from their 170/6s to AXC? Presumably the remaining 2-car 170/5 and 6s would be paired up on busier Shrewsbury/Hereford turns? Either way, I agree with comments that things don't add up yet (based on what has been said) and there seems to be a missing 10-15 vehicles however the numbers are shuffled around.

LM retaining ten 3 car 150s sounds fairly logical: I would assume that this would include the otherwise non-standard 150/0 prototype units. So that's only four more carriages than the 26 carriages I'd heard reported, sounds reasonable.

Yeah the 170/6s are supposed to be losing their centre cars to Crosscountry, which as you suggest means that pairs of two carriage units will be used on the Hereford/Shrewsbury turns over the current single 3 car units that are used. So the retention of ten 150 units makes sense there as otherwise LM would find itself short of stock.

that is a shame that they could be staying up there but i hope they dont. The london midland units will they be sending them in numerical order to FGW and Northern for example the last 9 LM have going to FGW and the earlier 8 to northern or is it just as random numbers that every ones getting and if so are the numbers all ready designated?? becuase i would like to get my book readyfor this.
cheers in advance
chris

The units that are going to FGW have apparently been decided and recorded on here in another thread somewhere: I think I noted the specific numbers down somewhere, but I'll have to have a search around. I do remember that the allocation was fairly random, so there's no particular order to which units are going where. It's worth bearing in mind that the cascade is going to require the splitting down of some of LMs' 3 car 150s into two car 150/1 and 150/2 units, so that the various carriages of any particular three car unit may be going to two different operators! If LM weren't planning on retaining some 150s, then it would make sense to transfer only 150/2 units to FGW and only 150/1s to Northern; but there won't be enough 150/2s available for this if LM retain ten three car units, so someone is going to end up with a mixxed fleet of /1s and /2s. :roll:

I'm hoping that once the Scottish electrification has taken hold that there will be some sort of cascade of 156s/158s to England.

 

[tbtc]

I'm hoping that once the Scottish electrification has taken hold that there will be some sort of cascade of 156s/158s to England.

I hope so too

Edinburgh - Falkirk - Glasgow uses eight 170s off peak, but they are doubled in the peaks, which means sixteen 170s freed up. No doubt these will stay in Scotland, but they ought to release at least a dozen 158s (Scotrail will no doubt want to keep some of the "spare" 158s)

Ideally I'd use this opportunity to get rid of the entire Scotrail forty eight 158s by sending some 156s north to simplify things

Then again, the Bathgate electrification isn't releasing any DMUs :cry:

 

[87019Chris]

The units that are going to FGW have apparently been decided and recorded on here in another thread somewhere: I think I noted the specific numbers down somewhere, but I'll have to have a search around.

I too shall have a search if I find it i will post a link too it on this reply cheers btw for the info

 

[Bastiaan]

I have recently put the numbers of cascaded 150s into a table, based on lots of information on this and other forums.

The 6 cars 150/0 would stay with London Midland. From the 48 cars 150/1 now with LM, 4 would stay there, 18 would go to FGW and 26 would go to Northern. Also 18 cars 150/1 from LOROL would go to FGW. From the 18 cars 150/2, Northern would get 4 of them, the rest (12 cars) would stay with LM.

This would mean that LM keeps only six 150/0 three-car sets: the two prototypes and four hybrids. This is less than the ten units that's spoken about, so I don't know how much of this is true. They would also keep eight more 150/2 cars, from which they can form four 150/2 two-car sets. This also brings the total amount to ten sets, but not all of them are three-car.

There was also spoken about a cascade of all 10 153s from LM to EMT.

So, I think we could only just wait for some months and let's see what would become true about this.

 

[158722]

They are staying in Scotland.

From December, ScotRail will need fewer DMUs when the Bathgate line becomes EMU (currently DMUs run Edinburgh - Bathgate, but EMUs will run Edinburgh - Bathgate - Airdrie - Glasgow - Beyond), so presumably not need so many 158s

Northern currently run Pacers/ 156s on routes that could maybe justify a 158 (Manchester Airport - Liverpool, Liverpool - Blackpool etc), whilst ScotRail are using 158s on routes that could maybe justify a Pacer/ 156 (e.g. the North Highland routes where there are low "top" speeds, or urban routes with frequent stops)

Scotland is indeed 'well endowed' with rolling stock and long may it continue. Perhaps its what Englandshire needs to aim for. The 158s are very suitable units for what they are used on such as the Edinburgh-Dunblanes which are around an hour end to end and share the 100mph E&G mainline for almost half their running distance, hence pasthing 90mph units is much easier than 75mph 156s, especially when late running.

The 8 'Northern' 158s are on lease until Dec 2014, the units freed up from Bathgate will allow 1 loco hauled set to be displaced and I gather 158s will replace 156s on the GC-Whifflets/ML-Cumbernaulds, in turn freeing up more 156s for strengthening Kilmarnock and East Kilbride. Hopefully, EK, Paisley Canal, Whifflet will get wired in the next couple of years, which may allow several 156 or 158s to head south.

I agree that there are various examples of unsuitable units being used on longer distance services in England (Northern and FGW spring to mind), but it appears the DfT don't provide the level fo support that Scotland's Railways (or indeed Wales) receive.

 

[northwichcat]

The 8 'Northern' 158s are on lease until Dec 2014.

Not correct. When DfT made Northern sublease the 158s the Northern Rail franchise was only until 2011 and has since been extended until 2013, meaning it's impossible for Northern to have subleased them until 2014 as that would have been 3 years longer than the franchise at the time of the sublease.

I *think* the sublease was originally only until December 2008 and got extended until December 2010. In December 2010 the lease is to be transferred to Scotrail and Scotrail will keep the 158s until the end of the franchise in 2014.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree that there are various examples of unsuitable units being used on longer distance services in England (Northern and FGW spring to mind), but it appears the DfT don't provide the level of support that Scotland's Railways (or indeed Wales) receive.

The problem is that Wales and Scotland are allowed to take trains from English routes when it doesn't work the other way around.

The 175s were built for North West regional routes (which included the North Wales coast at the time) to replace 101s and loco hauled. When the Welsh Assembly wanted an 'All Wales' franchise they took all the 175s. Yes 185s were procured for the Manchester Airport routes, but had the 175s been able to remain in the North West it could have meant longer trains on TransPennine Express.