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London: mayor should run rail services

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ert47

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And Southern have spent money on a bunch of 377s... Imagine them getting replaced by a new batch of 378s if Overground takes over... (not like that would happen...)
 

ushawk

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Ken is pointing out about LOROL, but thats only a few lines - compared to him talking about taking over the entire London commuter network - though its been talked about for a while that TFL may take over the South London services and as said on here a few times, the Northern City Line - a few lines being taken over would work - all suburban lines - wont happen.

Cant imagine the TOCs would be too happy about it either.
 

TheJRB

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I love London Overground and I think they've got a great network that's run well with clean stations and rolling stock. It works great with the five lines they run now, but I'd be interested to see how well they could manage all the suburban lines in London.

I very much doubt LO (or equivalent) would be able to buy 378s for all routes (even if it would make operations easier). Could they keep a couple of hundred stations clean and well looked after? I also doubt that.

Because of the way it is at the moment, LO runs well and looks good. On a much greater scale? I don't know.
 

johnb

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If this happens it'll happen when franchises are retendered. So the TOCs' opinions on the subject don't really matter.

(in any case, as with LO and LOROL, the operation of the newly transferred services will be tendered out to the private sector)
 

Southern

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And Southern have spent money on a bunch of 377s... Imagine them getting replaced by a new batch of 378s if Overground takes over... (not like that would happen...)

378's for all London Suburban lines...god I hope that never happens! Have to say I'm not the biggest 378 fan ;) If it ever happened, hopefully an interior similar to the S Stock on the MET would be used.
 

ChristopherJ

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If it ever happened, hopefully an interior similar to the S Stock on the MET would be used.

A comparison of Bombardier interiors... :D

Z50000 - Spacium 3.O6
450px-Technicentre_Paris_Nord_-_Joncherolles_-_Interieur_Z_50000_02.jpg


S Stock - Movia
800px-LUL-S-Stock-special-needs-car.jpg


Class 378 - Electrostar
797px-D_378017_Interior.JPG
 

Schnellzug

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If Boris takes over control, surely the first priority will be to design a New Train For London. Perhaps a new 4 EPB, with slam doors and a new front end with a smiley face. :p:idea:

Actually, it does seem a reasonable argument to have TfL responsible for services within the TfL area, but apart from LOLOL there'd be all sorts of practical problems since most of those services go well outside of London.
 

swt_passenger

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And Southern have spent money on a bunch of 377s... Imagine them getting replaced by a new batch of 378s if Overground takes over... (not like that would happen...)

TfL having control of routes and stations doesn't mean they have to use 378s. Not even Ken would want to waste money replacing perfectly adequate trains with 30 years life remaining.
 

jon0844

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Indeed. They might of course change the interior a little, but the real benefits to the public are manned stations and if it also saw staff on trains (in a more visual security role) then that would probably be no bad thing either.

Obviously this would add costs, but I am sure it's worth it - given the fact I'd happily travel on London Overground, but never liked the North London Line - and certainly would avoid it at certain times of the day (late night, or school chucking out time).

TfL would only replace rolling stock that needed it, which would be the 313s into Moorgate for certain. I'd expect the interior configuration to be different to the 378s though, as it isn't just for short distance travel - many more people would be going end to end (or thereabouts) which means being on the train for 30-45 minutes.
 

tbtc

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TfL having control of routes and stations doesn't mean they have to use 378s. Not even Ken would want to waste money replacing perfectly adequate trains with 30 years life remaining.

Exactly - in the same way that Abellio having control of the Greater Anglia franchise won't mean Pacers at Liverpool Street. LO run 172s on the GOBLIN after all.

New EMUs will be needed to replace the 313s on the Moorgate services at some stage, as I've argued before, but most short distance London lines have adequate stock at the moment (albiet could do with an extra carriage or two).

And, yes, imagine a London Mayor wasting money replacing perfectly adequate vehicles with most of their life still ahead of them, that'd be silly. Apart from when it's Boris and buses, of course...
 

jon0844

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Has TfL ever replaced (ignoring the Boris bus) rolling stock ahead of time, and for no good reason?
 

tbtc

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Has TfL ever replaced (ignoring the Boris bus) rolling stock ahead of time, and for no good reason?

Depends what you mean - there are units which have left London (despite having plenty of service in them), like the GOBLIN 150s which still have at least another decade's service left in them (like the similar ones with Northern/ ATW/ FGW), in the way that buses are "too old" at eight/ten years to run on many London bus routes (despite being built to last twice as long, so end up cascaded to the rest of the country).

I can't think of anything that has been withdrawn (that had a decent life left in it)
 

ChristopherJ

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Has TfL ever replaced (ignoring the Boris bus) rolling stock ahead of time, and for no good reason?

The 1983 stock on the Jubilee Line was replaced, rather than supplemented and converted on the grounds of cost, by a new fleet of 1996 stock to coincide with the phase 2 line extension despite only having a mere 14 years in service (1984-1998).

In the future, the D78 stock on the District Line will be replaced between 2013-2015 by new S stock (Movia) from Bombardier despite an extensive refurbishment as early as 2008 - by the same company.
 
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jopsuk

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All the 313s have been picked up by FCC and Southern, haven't they? Though they were replaced with longer, higher capacity trains.

Is the 172 fleet larger than the 150 fleet was?
 

ChristopherJ

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All the 313s have been picked up by FCC and Southern, haven't they?

Southern have 19 sets, FCC have 3 sets and one set is off lease with owner Eversholt Rail: 313121 - currently stored at Wolverton works and planned to be used by Network Rail for ERTMS testing on the Hertford loop in 2014.

Is the 172 fleet larger than the 150 fleet was?
No, same size, 8 sets.
 

Clip

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His eight-point plan also included plans to increase frequency to at least four trains an hour, better staffing and more step-free access at stations.

And where does the money come from for these extra trains and step free access stations? And what do NR think about this as there is no way in hell that they would give up the London Terminals either

Where do these extra paths to run 4tph when it will cause confliction with longer distance services who also have a pretty hectic time-table in the peaks. Who wins and who loses? As I bet you more people would be pretty annoyed to find that they are being punished for being commuters and not londoners as they would have to get on even more crowded trains because of losing paths.

But hey, It's TfL and London Overground so everything will be alright and sod the rest of you who dont live in London.
 

jopsuk

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the politics of the idea are very complex. The Oyster extension agreements beyond the Greater London Authority boundary require agreements with the local councils to ensure they have some level of oversight- as the locals there have no electoral influence over the GLA or Mayor of London. Further expansion will require many more agreements to be made.

part of the trouble is that some services that might be regarded as "Suburban" continue a very long way into the surrounding country- for example, trains from Moorgate run out as far as Letchworth. It would be a much simpler affair if, on every line, there was an "interchange" station that the TfL services could terminate and other commuter trains could run fast between it and their terminus- ideally, the "metro" would run along seperate tracks, but bear in mind the "fast" lines are often already full with express and intercity trains, so the slower commuter trains can't just be shunted out there.

Plus, those stations just don't exist.

Politically perhaps some of these issues could be circumvented by expanding "London"- adding a further ring perhaps of boroughs that currently lie outside the Greater London boundary to the sphere of influence of the Mayor. This would be complex however.
 

ert47

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And where does the money come from for these extra trains and step free access stations? And what do NR think about this as there is no way in hell that they would give up the London Terminals either

But hey, It's TfL and London Overground so everything will be alright and sod the rest of you who dont live in London.

Im personally speaking from looking at South London. Particulary with services from;
  • SOUTHERN: London Bridge/Victoria - West Croydon/Sutton/Wimbledon Loop/Caterham/Tattenham Corner
  • SOUTHEASTERN: London Charing Cross/Cannon Street - Dartford/Hayes(Kent) and Bromley North Shuttle/Orpington
  • SOUTHWEST TRAINS: Waterloo - Chessington South/Hampton Court/services via Strawberry Hill and/or Hounslow (not too familiar with Southwest Trains)
In most places, current services are separated between fasts and slows - LO effectively taking over the slows.

A number of stations on the Southern network within London are currently getting upgraded to include step free access. So in stations it will be already in place.

But overall, it would make things kinda over complicated...
 

AndrewP

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Another stage in Ken's decline into megalomania and insanity - probably. (He is a complex character and I have huge respect for what he did with the GLC even if his politics are different to my own).

No fare rises and increased investment - its going to have to be paid for but right now thats a future problem for someone else.

As for Boris - not sure I would say he was totally sane either (a positive for the pair of them) - but he said he would get a new routemaster and rid of the bendies by the end of 2012 and he has - much to my surprise. The question with Boris is whether his promises are sensible in the first place! (probably a mix of emminently sensible and utterly nuts tbh).

Back on topic - integarting inner suburban services with the Overground does seem sensible as part of new franchises (who ever operates them).
 

mister-sparky

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part of the trouble is that some services that might be regarded as "Suburban" continue a very long way into the surrounding country- for example, trains from Moorgate run out as far as Letchworth. It would be a much simpler affair if, on every line, there was an "interchange" station that the TfL services could terminate and other commuter trains could run fast between it and their terminus- ideally, the "metro" would run along seperate tracks, but bear in mind the "fast" lines are often already full with express and intercity trains, so the slower commuter trains can't just be shunted out there.

Plus, those stations just don't exist.

yes they do. like orpington on the seml, the metro trains run all shacks from charing cross/cannon st to there, the fasts make their first stop there. a similar thing happens with bromley south on the chatham line.
theres woking and guildford for southwest, and east croydon/dorking/oxted with southern.
 

notadriver

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It's worth pointing out that the maximum length of 378s in service is 4 cars whereas S Stock and indeed all other unit types can be coupled to make longer trains.

Not sure if the timetable is well constructed but does this contribute to 97% of Lorol trains being on time?
 

route:oxford

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I could see the benefit of TfL operating Cross-rail out to Reading (and ideally Oxford).
 

Schnellzug

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yes they do. like orpington on the seml, the metro trains run all shacks from charing cross/cannon st to there, the fasts make their first stop there. a similar thing happens with bromley south on the chatham line.
theres woking and guildford for southwest, and east croydon/dorking/oxted with southern.

This is a case in point. Orpington and Bromley are within the TfL area, but other SE suburban services go on to places outside, like to Sevonoaks and Gravesend, and similarly Woking and Guildford are way outside the TfL area. So would there be services serving stations that aren't otherwise served by Tfl, or would the services entirely within be segregated from the ones that continue outside? I do think it's a reaonable idea, but it could lead to some complication even more than there is now.
 

pendolino

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Where do these extra paths to run 4tph when it will cause confliction with longer distance services who also have a pretty hectic time-table in the peaks.

Already happened between Sydenham and New Cross Gate - 12tph now (4tph from West Croydon, 4tph from Crystal Palace, both Looroll, and 2tph from Caterham, 2tph from Victoria, both Southern), more in the peak when Southern run a few extra services. Gets a bit frustrating constantly running on single yellow....single yellow....single yellow....and always losing time.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Already happened between Sydenham and New Cross Gate - 12tph now (4tph from West Croydon, 4tph from Crystal Palace, both Looroll, and 2tph from Caterham, 2tph from Victoria, both Southern), more in the peak when Southern run a few extra services. Gets a bit frustrating constantly running on single yellow....single yellow....single yellow....and always losing time.

Bit like on the Watford - Euston DC , thanks to a surfeit of Bakerloo trains (often running out of course) - +2 /3 aspect signals. A green was almost a signal irregularity said some drivers !!!
 
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