London-Manchester at peak puzzle

[BruceBruce]

Hello everyone.

Thought I'd share with you a (hopefully valid) way of avoiding paying £108.50 for a peak time advance single to Manchester from London Euston.

Afraid I must travel tomorrow (Tues), bang in the middle of peak time, as need to finish work and also be in Manchester before 8pm.

1. 1648 Euston - Milton Keynes 1730 (w/Network Railcard) = £13
2. 1750 Milton - Stoke-On-Trent 1849 (advance peak) = £60
3. 1849 Stoke - Manchester 1928 (adv off-peak) = £8.80
(or 1855 Stoke - Manchester 1939 (adv off-peak) = £5)
TOTAL = £81.80

Preferably I'd like to get the 1707 from Euston all the way to Manchester, but it says on the timetable that MK is "pick-up only".

I take it that means I wouldn't be allowed to board the 1707 with a ticket to MK? (This is why I've gone for the 1648 London Midland service to MK in the table above).

Would be much obliged for any thoughts!

Bruce

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do you have a railcard other than a Network railcard?

Otherwise, the best I can think of is travelling via, and splitting tickets at Wolverhampton. You should be able to get a Euston-Wolverhampton advance ticket for £55.50 for tomorrow, and an off-peak single from Wolverhampton-Manchester is £24.50. Total = £80.00.

The 1643 departure from Euston gets you to Wolverhampton for 1837 (Change at Birmingham New Street) and the 1849 departure from Wolverhampton gets you into Manchester Piccadilly for 2000.

 

[northwichcat]

Alternative (longer but cheaper) option i.e. you spend longer travelling but don't wait in London until the peak period has finished:

16:30 Marleybone to Shrewsbury £20 for a print at home ticket
19:54 Shrewsbury to Manchester £16.30 for a single (arrives 21:15)

Total £36.30 - some £10 advances are available for peak time travel on Wrexham and Shropshire services but not for tomorrow.

>> Edit: Sorry missed the 'be in Manchester before 8pm' Left it there in case it's of use to anyone else.

I've also found a cheaper via Nottingham option though that doesn't meet your requirements:
Kings Cross to Nottingham - Anytime Single £59.50
16:30 Kings Cross to Grantham
17:45 Grantham to Nottingham

Nottingham to Manchester - Advance £9 - currently available for tomorrow.
18:45 Nottingham to Manchester (arrives 20:40)

Total cost: £68.50

 

[tony_mac]

an off-peak return Lancaster to London at £73.20, and just use the return portion and break in Manchester.

( a single may not be valid for break of journey, and therefored may possibly not be allowed to finish short, but it's only another £1 for the return)



or an off-peak single from Reading to Manchester route any permitted. (this probably isn't suppose to be valid via London, and some example in the routeing guide says it isn't, while other parts say it is. I would expect an argument about this one.)

 

[yorkie]

What's the earliest you can leave Euston (or another London terminal e.g. Marylebone, King's Cross) and what's the latest you want to arrive at Manchester?

 

[BruceBruce]

Thanks for all the responses -- really useful as I do this trip quite often at short notice.

Yorkie - As close to 5pm as possible, and must arrive before 8pm.

Tony_Mac - I like your idea and might take it up. Just one thing though -- can I use that off-peak return on a peak train out of London?

(I take it London-Lancaster via Manchester is a permitted route?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Aha! I've just found an unused return segment for a Stockport-London off-peak journey I did recently that's still in-date.

Unsure how that changes things. I take it I can't use that from London at a peak time. But perhaps later in the journey...

Sorry to confuse!

 

[yorkie]

EUS - MKC (dep 1648, arr 1730) [London Midland]
MKC - CRE (dep 1740, arr 1853 ) [Calls at Nuneaton]
CRE - MAN (dep 1911, arr 1949)

Euston - Milton Keynes Anytime Day with Network Railcard discount £11.15
Milton Keynes - Nuneaton Anytime £25.00
Nuneaton - Manchester Anytime £28.00

Total £64.15

 

[googolplex]

For the return portion of the Stockport-London ticket it looks like the validity is as follows:
DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
Between 0926 & 1500 (inc.) and
at or after 1845.

ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON
Before 0720 or at or after
1130.

It has restriction code 2C (with the limitations listed above) as far as Milton Keynes, with restriction code 2V thereafter.
Restriction code 2V is valid on any train after 9.30am IIRC.

 

[yorkie]

It's not going to be worth using that off peak ticket, it's a can of worms as to whether you can use it on a train that has originated from London or not. Then there's the lack of trains from stations north of Milton Keynes to Manchester. In order to do it from Rugby for example, to get to Manchester by 2000 you'd need to be on the 1737 from Rugby. You aren't going to be able to combine the cheapness of the Euston to Milton Keynes ticket with the Network Railcard, with the cheapness of an Off Peak from Rugby (or north of Rugby) and be able to do the journey within a depart 1700 / arrive 2000 timeframe. The timetable is, I believe, deliberately designed this way to prevent such cheap combinations being used.

 

[devon_metro]

Obviously not condoning fraud, but can you not excess the difference between the off peak and peak ticket? Can't imagine it will cost too much.

 

[yorkie]

Obviously not condoning fraud, but can you not excess the difference between the off peak and peak ticket? Can't imagine it will cost too much.

It's not fraud but it would cost a lot.

London - Manchester SVR £66.20
London - Manchester SOR £262.00

Difference = £195.80

Not only is it cheaper to get an SOS (£131.00) but you then still have the rtn portion of the SVR to use another time.

Excessing works well for over-distance and changing route. But it's not good for changing to a peak ticket.

 

[tony_mac]

From Lancaster, it's a code 3A.

Outward Travel.
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to ARRIVE:
London Euston :
At or after 1005
Milton Keynes Central:
At or after 1020
Watford Junction:
At or after 1020

Return Travel.
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to DEPART:
London Euston :
At or after 0905
Milton Keynes Central:
At or after 0900
Watford Junction:
At or after 0900

You could also get an over-distance excess from Stockport to Lancaster to save some money (as in, it should cost you about £5 total!).

There is no guarantee that you won't have trouble if there is a barrier at Euston, due to the staff not knowing the rules.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, that's true. The original ticket to Stockport could be excesed to Lancaster. Break of journey is always permitted on the return portion.

In theory that should cost £3.75

I would do it in advance. St Pancras is good for excesses I've heard. Euston is not good for excesses.

 

[BruceBruce]

EDIT: Sorry, just seen what you said about excessing to Lancaster. So what you're saying is, in theory I can excess my ticket, its restriction code will become 3A that lets me board any train departing London Euston after 0905, and I can break my journey in Manchester? (in theory, mind -- don't worry, won't hold you to it!)


previous post (before I saw the excess thing)
Cheers everyone -- this is as interesting as it is useful.

Just thinking about the "can of worms" Yorkie advised me to avoid, that I'd be opening were I to attempt using my the return part of my Stockport-London off-peak by boarding at MK...

Would it be the same can of worms if I were to buy an off-peak return for Manchester-Milton Keynes (£51.50) and board the train at MK tomorrow, using my return ticket? Would that avoid the problem with my Stockport ticket originating in London, and the associated restriction on travelling out of London with that ticket?

 

[tony_mac]

EDIT: Sorry, just seen what you said about excessing to Lancaster. So what you're saying is, in theory I can excess my ticket, its restriction code will become 3A that lets me board any train departing London Euston after 0905, and I can break my journey in Manchester? (in theory, mind -- don't worry, won't hold you to it!)

Yes, that's certainly the theory.

 

[yorkie]

Would it be the same can of worms if I were to buy an off-peak return for Manchester-Milton Keynes (£51.50) and board the train at MK tomorrow, using my return ticket? Would that avoid the problem with my Stockport ticket originating in London, and the associated restriction on travelling out of London with that ticket?

The restrictions apply on tickets from MKC or anywhere south of MKC.

Ideally there'd be a train from EUS to MAN that called at MKC and RUG. That would allow a very cheap combination indeed. Of course that doesn't happen because it would be too easy. Indeed the VT services do not call to set down at MKC during the evening peak, and then don't call until somewhere like Stoke or Crewe!

Lancaster is a loophole, and in the outward direction they could in theory say that it is invalid if you step outside the station premises at Manchester Piccadilly. But there is no such restriction on the return portion. It's totally legit but some staff may attempt to stop you because they're a bit like Basil Fawlty and such types are tolerated by some managers.

The other loophole is to get a child to go with you and get a Family Railcard discounted ticket. This is valid on any train. Yes, it really is £56.30 walk-on for a return for 1 adult and 1 child on the 1700 EUS - MAN with a Railcard, but £262 for 1 adult for a return.

There is another loophole but I don't like to publicise it too much. All I will say is, if you know what a "Thumper" is, then the place where they can be found is a good place to get a ticket to

 

[janb]

Lancaster is a loophole, and in the outward direction they could in theory say that it is invalid if you step outside the station premises at Manchester Piccadilly. But there is no such restriction on the return portion. It's totally legit but some staff may attempt to stop you because they're a bit like Basil Fawlty and such types are tolerated by some managers.

Just a note on the Lancaster SVR trick to anyone thinking they might use it, the only thing you have to bear in mind is,

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

So get your ticket printed off well before you want to use it, ie not 16.00 when you are boarding the 16.20, an eagle eyed guard may spot it.

 

[nedchester]

But you could legitimately be going on a peak train from Euston to Manchester and change at Manchester for Lancaster (a valid route?). Of course on arrival at Manchester you could visit the station facilities (Sainsburys, M&S etc) before travelling on to Lancaster....................Oh look you're outside the station barrier!!!!!

 

[BruceBruce]

Right, I went to Euston ticket office, got an excess to Lancaster for £3.75 (reads "LONDON TERMINALS TO LANCASTER"). I asked the guy to make sure that the terms and conditions are now the same as if for a Lancaster off-peak return, to which he said yes.

Obviously I've got the ticket barrier at Euston to overcome yet, so not counting my chickens quite yet. Will let you know how I fare (ahem).

But one thing I've discovered thanks to your efforts is that the National Rail Enq website will allow you to book off-peak return tickets from London to Lancaster via Manchester, leaving at peak times, for £73.20.

Let's hope I don't carelessly invalidate my ticket by straying outside the station by the accident in Manchester while waiting for my train to Lancaster.

 

[John @ home]

Let's hope I don't carelessly invalidate my ticket by straying outside the station by the accident in Manchester while waiting for my train to Lancaster.

That would not invalidate your ticket. A SVR Lancaster - London forbids break of journey on the outward leg only.

Origin: LANCASTER
Destination: LONDON TERMINALS
Route: 00000 - ANY PERMITTED
SVR - OFF-PEAK RETURN VWC
1 Adult @£ 73.20
Restriction : 3A
No break of journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains.

After arrival in Manchester, you can still gain value for your £3.75 investment by using it for any part of a Manchester - Lancaster journey during the validity of your original Stockport ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Obviously I've got the ticket barrier at Euston to overcome yet, so not counting my chickens quite yet. Will let you know how I fare (ahem).

If they refuse, get their details.

But one thing I've discovered thanks to your efforts is that the National Rail Enq website will allow you to book off-peak return tickets from London to Lancaster via Manchester, leaving at peak times, for £73.20.

Yes that's right, because it's valid!

Let's hope I don't carelessly invalidate my ticket by straying outside the station by the accident in Manchester while waiting for my train to Lancaster.

You would not be invalidating it. You said earlier it's a return portion. Break of journey is allowed on the return portion of Off Peak / Super Off Peak tickets. It's only the outward portion of some of these tickets that may prohibit BOJ.

 

[tony_mac]

But one thing I've discovered thanks to your efforts is that the National Rail Enq website will allow you to book off-peak return tickets from London to Lancaster via Manchester, leaving at peak times, for £73.20.

I would do that on the Virgin website, and take a printout. Surely the barrier staff couldn't argue about what their own website says......

 

[BruceBruce]

Indebted to you all. As I said, will keep you apprised!

Bruce

 

[yorkie]

There are some Basil Fawlty types on the railway. They are in the minority, but they do exist, and you never know when you're going to encounter them. Some of them will even attempt entrapment (as myself and other forum members experienced on FGW once) which is absolutely disgraceful. So it's important to know your rights, bring evidence where you feel it may be useful, not give in, and get the details of anyone who makes rules up and treats you anything less than the way a customer should be treated, and ask for details on how you may make a complaint.

That said, the chances are there will be no problem at all. It's just, you never know on the railway. It's not like entering a shop where the chances of being treated like scum are virtually nil. The chances are still relatively small, but high enough to have to be prepared.

 

[BruceBruce]

In fact the first ticket assistant I encountered at Euston last night was a little Basil Fawlty-ish. (although a lady -- Basilina? Basilette?)

She clearly didn't like the idea of what I was doing, and got a bit haughty in a sort of "I don't know, I don't really want to spare the effort of finding out, so I'll just say no" sort of way.

She also said it would be £7.50 for the excess, as if I wanted to excess the outward journey from Stockport I've already made! :roll:

So I left it, tried another assistant who was very helpful, did exactly what I asked.

Anyway, I'll go to the barrier today with armed with a print-off from the National Fares Manual and screenshots from the VT website showing I can buy off-peak tickets for the 1720 train I want to get. I'll even go on the internet on my phone to show them if necessary!

 

[yorkie]

They may say it'll be the full excess, but it's what the machine does that counts

 

[A60K]

Let's hope I don't carelessly invalidate my ticket by straying outside the station by the accident in Manchester while waiting for my train to Lancaster.

Even if it were the outward portion it would be perfectly legitimate to walk from Manchester Piccadilly to Victoria to pick up your next train there (and in the old days, before the Windsor Link opened in 1987/8?, this is what you would have needed to do)!

 

[BruceBruce]

Would love to tell you it worked but arrived at Euston only to hear there were no trains out of the station, owing to a breakdown near Milton Keynes. There was an announcement saying off-peak tickets would be valid on any service I could find that was running (ie, very few!)

So no-one's checked my ticket, and I doubt anyone will by the time I get to Manchester.

Still, at least I know the 'Lancaster Loophoole' for other times!

Bruce

 

[Pumbaa]

Yup - WCML buggered itself up again good and proper!

 

[bakerstreet]

Re Yorkie's reply -

'There is another loophole but I don't like to publicise it too much. All I will say is, if you know what a "Thumper" is, then the place where they can be found is a good place to get a ticket to

I've done some googling and can't find the answer - what is the other loophole, could you put me out of my misery?!