London-Holyhead advice

[LexyBoy]

I'm going to Holyhead over the weekend of the 23rd-25th Oct. Since I can't find any especially cheap AP fares, it'll be on a saver, which gives me a bit more flexibility as well. Now, some questions:

1. Are all Holyhead services Voyagers or are there still Pendo drags?
2. What's the best route otherwise? Pendo to Crewe then VT/ATW to holyhead?
2b. Is travel via Wrexham on WSMR a valid route? (Possibly followed by WAG express if timings are OK)

I'd rather not be on a Voyager for 4 hours if avoidable, for obvious reasons

Sorry if these have all been answered before (I think they have) but I'm not having any joy with the forum search - it always gives me hundreds of seemingly unrelated posts

 

[John @ home]

2b. Is travel via Wrexham on WSMR a valid route?

Yes. Appropriately, it uses map WS of the Routeing Guide.

John

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I think all Holyhead services are now Voyagers

 

[northwichcat]

All Chester services are Voyagers. Trains to and from North Wales run as paired up Voyagers between Chester and London. So if you're travelling on a direct train then you need to be sure that you board the right portion, as if your on the wrong portion it'll terminate at Chester and it's next service will be back to London.

North Wales-London services have a frequency of less than one every two hours, so it may be more convenient for you to change at Chester anyway.

There are a few direct trains between Crewe and Holyhead, so depending on the time you travel at you may be able to get a Pendolino to Crewe and a 158 or 175 to Holyhead.

 

[EltonRoad]

There was a Pendolino drag over the summer - 0850 SO Euston to Holyhead (and, I think, 1436 return working). Don't know if it's still running though or whether it's gone back to Voyager.

 

[Philip Elliott]

There was a Pendolino drag over the summer - 0850 SO Euston to Holyhead (and, I think, 1436 return working). Don't know if it's still running though or whether it's gone back to Voyager.

It is still in the timetable and the next.

 

[robert2000]

i did not know wsmr were a vilid route.

wat other valid routes between chester and london is there

 

[John @ home]

wat other valid routes between chester and london is there

There are a large number of permitted routes between Chester and London. The National Routeing Guide contains a series of maps here.

The permitted routes between Chester and London are shown on six maps, or sequences of maps:
1. BC+TV
2. CC+GC
3. CH+BC+TV
4. CL+LC
5. LC
6. WS

(The permitted routes between Holyhead and London are shown on exactly the same maps, but only Shotton to London appears on the maps. Travel from Holyhead - Shotton is direct.)

For the codes above where only one map is shown, it's straightforward. You can travel by any route between Chester and London which can be traced on the particular map.

For codes which have a sequence of two or more maps, to find permitted routes you must start at the first or last map in the sequence, trace a route to a point which also occurs on the next map, switch to that map, and repeat the process until you have used all the maps in the sequence and reached your destination. You must use all the maps in a sequence and you must use them either in the order first-to-last or last-to-first.

John

 

[merlodlliw]

i did not know wsmr were a vilid route.

wat other valid routes between chester and london is there

Dont know about now, but prior to W/S if I travelled to London from Wrexham
I had the choice of, WRX/CTR/CREWE or WRX/BIRM to London same price but
the route via Brum took 90 minutes longer.

However 4 hours on a voyager is better than change at Chester and find yourself on a 158 for over two hours, or wait at Chester for a 175 or the
WAG.

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks for the help everyone. I think I'll check out WSMR and change at Shrewsbury on the way out. I've just had a look on the National Rail site, which doesn't seem to think this is a valid route - putting 'via Shrewsbury' gives a route via Birmingham, and I couldn't force it to use WSMR, but I guess this is just that it's not programmed in? I'll check with the guard before anyway.

 

[tony_mac]

that may well just be due to the timing.

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo - but map WS specifies Birmingham New St, and not just 'Birmingham' like every other map. I think we concluded that most of the services don't actually pass through New St.

 

[John @ home]

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo - but map WS specifies Birmingham New St, and not just 'Birmingham' like every other map. I think we concluded that most of the services don't actually pass through New St.

I think most of us concluded that the rules on Group Stations allow travel via map WS on WSMR trains, whether or not they pass through Birmingham New Street.

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/instructions.pdf

All WSMR trains pass through one or more of the members of Birmingham Group: Aston, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham Moor Street, Birmingham Snow Hill and Duddeston.

John

 

[yorkie]

ATOC ordered WSMR to accept Route Birmingham tickets, as Chiltern were breaching ticket conditions by refusing to accept them. Thetrainline is still in breach of impartial retailing rules by not selling this ticket for WSMR services.

It was thanks to people on this forum for bringing the matter to light that WSMR now correctly accept the Route Birmingham tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

that may well just be due to the timing.

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo - but map WS specifies Birmingham New St, and not just 'Birmingham' like every other map. I think we concluded that most of the services don't actually pass through New St.

We concluded that WSMR were bound to accept these tickets on trains booked to pass through New Street, or that did pass through New Street. Aston is debateable. On trains not booked, and then not going, via New Street, they could charge the appropriate excess (about £3 or so) however I believe WSMR chose not to go down that route because if they did it would pose some potential problems...
1) The guard would have to refund the excess if the train was re-routed via New Street
2) It is not publicly available information which way the train is routed, so customers would have no way of knowing if they were going to be excessed or not
3) It would create a daft, ludicrous situation that would have got them bad publicity
4) The amount involved is peanuts

I think they made the right decision (eventually).

The problem wasn't so much that WSMR were not accepting the Route Brum tickets, but that they were also refusing to excess them and members of the public reported that they were told to leave the train or buy a brand new ticket. That was an illegal act by WSMR and totally in breach of ticket rules. If WSMR had continued to act that way then they would have had their license to operate revoked. So they had to either accept Route Brum always, or go down the complicated possible excess route.

The above assumes that "Route Birmingham" means Birmingham Stations, not Birmingham Group. If it means Birmingham Group, then it is valid via Aston equally as it is via New Street. I am told it means Birmingham Stations, however the rules are not clear and nowhere does it explicitly state that, so if it was to be an issue (which it isn't) it could in theory go to a court to decide. Fortunately it's not come to that!

 

[tony_mac]

Sorry to cause confusion - it's just that the Routeing Guide specifies 'Birmingham New Street' on map WS.

As they are only supposed to be routeing points on the map, and New Street isn't actually a routeing point, it's pretty safe to assume it's just a typo.

 

[northwichcat]

However 4 hours on a voyager is better than change at Chester and find yourself on a 158 for over two hours, or wait at Chester for a 175 or the
WAG.

The original poster asked for alternatives to Voyagers, so that's why I suggested the 158/175/Pendolino options. However, I myself would prefer to go along the North Wales coast on a Voyager opposed to a 158 or 175 and find there to be little difference between a Pendolino and Voyager, except the size but paired up Voyagers for Holyhead-London services makes up for the less seats. The Voyager may be a bit nosier, but then has less restrictions on the view than on a Pendolino.

 

[25322]

Alternative has to be Skip from Marylebone to Shrewsbury and then get the 57 Hauled WAG Express from Shrewsbury-Holyhead. Crash out in a cheap B&B and the catch the WaG back the next morning from Holyhead.

No Voyagers in sight.