London - Grange-Over-Sands via Skipton/Burnley?

[itfcfan]

Hi all,

I'm on holiday in the lakes this week and hold a London Terminals - Grange-Over-Sands Off Peak Return priced at £93.30.

I'll be travelling back to London on Friday (19th) but with the disruption south of Preston I intend to find another route as far away as possible to avoid overcrowded diversionary trains / bustitution.

Members of my family are travelling to their homes by car via Skipton and another group are going via Burnley. I intend to get a lift to either town and then continue my journey to London by train (via Leeds or Manchester respectively) if my ticket allows.

Can someone help me with the valid routes for my ticket? I'm happy to purchase an excess and/or single to get me back on route if required.

Thanks,

John

 

[bb21]

Valid Routes from Grange-Over-Sands [GOS] to London Terminals:

1. Direct trains from Grange-Over-Sands to London: None.
   
2. Shortest Route: 249.5 miles (down the WCML pretty much).
   
3. Mapped Routes (subject to fares check):
   Carlisle - LONDON GROUP:
   • BS + CS
   • BS + GC
   • ER + MM
   • ER + TP + MM
   • ER + WY + MM
   • LM
   • MM
   • MM + ER
   • MM + TP + EE
   • MM + TP + ER
   • MM + WY + EE
   • MM + WY + ER
   • NC + MH + TP + EE
   • NC + MH + TP + ER
   • NW + GM + WY + EE
   • NW + GM + WY + ER
   • NW + TV
   • ZZ
   
   LANCASTER GROUP - LONDON GROUP:
   • BS + CS
   • BS + GC
   • LM
   • LM + CS
   • MM
   • NC + CS
   • NC + EH + LM
   • NC + MH + LM
   • NC + PS + MM
   • NW + PS + MM

You may use any mapped route between Lancaster and London Group without doubling back. You may also use any mapped route between Carlisle and London Group without doubling back as long as the route passes Newcastle as Carlisle passes fares check for Route Via Newcastle fares only.

 

[itfcfan]

Thanks for your prompt reply, bb21.

The combination of maps are a bit more complex than fares I've looked at in the past. Maps MM and NC appear to show the route I'm after, so I believe routing via Skipton or Burnley should be valid?

I don't understand how the Carlisle - London Group is involved? Is this because the fare is less or equal to the one I've paid?

Thanks again.

John

 

[bb21]

Sorry I can't be more specific at the moment, as I am on the move. Someone else might be able to check for you.

You can use any of the listed map combinations to map out a permitted route. MM+NC is not a listed map combination, however MM on its own is, and iirc MM includes the Settle and Carlisle line, so that would make it fine for you to join at Skipton then travel via Leeds. You can come back by going Leeds - Hellifield - Lancaster - Grange-over-Sands.

Carlisle passes fares check for the Route Via Newcastle fare, as the Anytime Single fare to your destination (London Terminals) is cheaper than your Grange-over-Sands ticket. Fares check is only done by comparing four specific fare types, not all fares.

You might want to have a go at coming up with some exotic permitted routes yourself, and if you have any questions, just ask. I'm sure people will be more than happy to help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I just noticed that there is no break of journey allowed on the outward portion of your ticket, so you cannot start short officially speaking.

However how enforceable this is is a different question, and even if it is, how likely Northern guards are going to be aware of this fact is another question.

 

[cuccir]

I just noticed that there is no break of journey allowed on the outward portion of your ticket, so you cannot start short officially speaking.

Should be fine as the OP is asking about the return journey only, when break of journey is always allowed.

Map MM does indeed include Lancaster-Hellifield-Leeds. However, it doesn't have the East Coast Mainline south of Doncaster: rather, it routes you via Sheffield and the Midland Mainline, so you'd have to follow this route. That means travelling on a Cross Country train from Leeds and changing at one of Sheffield, Chesterfield or Derby for St Pancras.

It may be that the Carlisle routing give you other options - this needs playing around with further! Does the via Newcastle ticket actually still exist?

--
A few other thoughts:

* I'm not sure this engineering work will effect you too much anyway? There aren't so many through trains Grange-Manchester now, but you can change onto a TPE from Lancaster-Manchester, which are running as normal and then you can travel on to London from Manchester. The worst that will happen is it will be a bit busy from Preston-Manchester but if you already have a seat that shouldn't be a problem.

* Although the ticket isn't valid via Burnley, it is via Blackburn. If your relatives driving to Burnley could drop you off in Blackburn then you could travel in from there.

 

[bb21]

It may be that the Carlisle routing give you other options - this needs playing around with further! Does the via Newcastle ticket actually still exist?

It exists for Carlisle.

 

[kieron]

It may be that the Carlisle routing give you other options - this needs playing around with further!

I can't see any easement which allows doubling back through York, so a valid route would have to approach Newcastle from another direction.
The Carlisle-Newcastle line is shown on maps GN and HX, which aren't available for this journey.
The Edinburgh-Newcastle line is shown on maps AS, EG, ER and FK. Only ER is in some of the map combinations.

I'll ignore ER+MM, ER+TP+MM and ER+WY+MM as they start with ER, and Carlisle doesn't appear on that map.

MM+TP+ER and NC+MH+TP+ER precede it with TP, which doesn't go to Scotland.
MM+WY+ER and NW+GM+WY+ER use WY, which doesn't either.

MM+ER does, and it allows Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Selby-Leeds-Wakefield-Doncaster-ECML-London. It doesn't allow any travel between Carlisle and Leeds, though.

There are no relevant negative easements, and I can't see any relevant positive ones, A single from Skipton to Leeds costs an extra £7.80 if you split it at Crossflats, £8.80 if you don't.

And that's it for routes via Newcastle.

 

[itfcfan]

* I'm not sure this engineering work will effect you too much anyway? There aren't so many through trains Grange-Manchester now, but you can change onto a TPE from Lancaster-Manchester, which are running as normal and then you can travel on to London from Manchester. The worst that will happen is it will be a bit busy from Preston-Manchester but if you already have a seat that shouldn't be a problem.

Having been on some busy TPE services, including one from Manchester to Lancaster last year, I'd really prefer to avoid this if at all possible. I travel a lot in the south and I'm fine with standing, but when a 3 coach train is so full that passengers are left behind, it really isn't fun.

MM+ER, listed for the Carlisle-London routing seems to fit the bill. How I explain the the Northern guard on the Skipton-Leeds train that my ticket is valid is another question...

Kieron suggests MM+ER is not valid between Carlisle and Leeds. Why is this? Because I must travel via Newcastle if I use Carlisle charts? I must confess, I don't understand how the Carlisle charts can come into play.

 

[bb21]

Kieron suggests MM+ER is not valid between Carlisle and Leeds. Why is this? Because I must travel via Newcastle if I use Carlisle charts? I must confess, I don't understand how the Carlisle charts can come into play.

Yes, if you use permitted map combinations provided with Carlisle, then you must use routes that travel through Newcastle, as this is the condition for Carlisle passing fares check and being used as an appropriate routeing point for Grange-o-S.

If you compare the Any Permitted fare with the Any Permitted fare, Carlisle fails fares check and therefore would not provide you with any permitted route in this case.

 

[30907]

Having been on some busy TPE services, including one from Manchester to Lancaster last year, I'd really prefer to avoid this if at all possible. I travel a lot in the south and I'm fine with standing, but when a 3 coach train is so full that passengers are left behind, it really isn't fun.

Another thread today indicates that the Preston-Stockport-B'ham trains are pretty empty ex Preston.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Another thread today indicates that the Preston-Stockport-B'ham trains are pretty empty ex Preston.

They are empty as they don't connect with anything useful at Preston. The TPE services are, however, even more overcrowded than normal and are leaving folk behind all over the place, even further up the WCML.